Go With Your Palate
Joe Wagner, 5th Generation Winemaker, presents the podcast "Go With Your Palate." A podcast about wine, entrepreneurship, and whatever the F else. So buckle up - this isn't your normal wine podcast.
Go With Your Palate
E101 Marshall Tilden III | Joe Wagner
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What if knowing more about wine actually made you take it LESS seriously?
Marshall Tilden III—President of Wine Express and Wine Education at Wine Enthusiast—joins us to break down Old World vs. New World, how to taste and recognize the qualities of a good wine, and why making wine more approachable might be exactly what the industry needs.
Serious wine knowledge. Zero wine snobbery. 🍷
🎙️ Go With Your Palate: Marshall Tilden III | Serious Wine Knowledge Without the Serious Wine Attitude
This week, we’re joined by Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW—President of Wine Express and Wine Education at Wine Enthusiast, longtime wine educator, writer, and one of those rare people who can bring some seriously impressive wine credentials to the table without making you feel like you need a dictionary just to order a glass. With nearly two decades at Wine Enthusiast, a WSET Diploma, CSW certification, and a career dedicated to helping people better understand—and actually enjoy—wine, Marshall is exactly the kind of voice the industry needs right now.
We dive into Marshall’s journey from an upbringing that was a little English by name, Italian by experience, to discovering his passion for wine and eventually becoming an influential leader and educator in the industry. Along the way, we pull back the curtain on Wine Enthusiast, the work happening behind the scenes to educate and welcome the next generation of wine lovers, and Marshall’s own mission to help take some of the pretentiousness out of wine culture.
Then we get properly cork-dorky: Old World vs. New World, why Americans tend to talk about wine by grape while Europeans often talk about place, wine scores, regions, varietals, and what actually matters when choosing a bottle. Because with all the rules, ratings, terminology, and traditions surrounding wine, sometimes the most important question is still the simplest: Do you actually enjoy what's in your glass?
And because this is Go With Your Palate, education never means taking ourselves too seriously. Marshall brings the knowledge, Joe brings the winemaker perspective, Fat Mario brings... whatever Fat Mario brings—and somewhere along the way, a wine masterclass turns into exactly the kind of conversation we love having.
Whether you're a seasoned vino geek, an aspiring cork dork, or someone who still picks a bottle because the label looks cool, there’s a seat at the table for you.
Pour what you like, ask the questions, and leave the wine snobbery at the door. 🍷🤓
📍 Follow Marshall: @westchesterwine
So John Elway, like this kind of scrawny guy going in and and everybody's like, why the hell would the Broncos draft
kick it off with some foose ball talk... (John Elway NFL)
SPEAKER_03this guy? And he just like had his own style. He performed over like he had to make that team and the fan base believe in him and he had to work his ass off. He got his ass kicked. And uh he became one of the best quarterbacks ever. But the the whole story, and to the point of of what he's saying, like the the documentary was done so well, but yeah, he's making his own wine, he had his own restaurant uh uh chain and did really well. It seems like everything he touched goes to gold and his car dealership chain.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, so it came up because um, as part of bringing in his wine, he came on and we did a like a podcast interview, and he talked about his history and and what he did and how he got there. And as I'm interviewing him, I had like 20 windows open in the in the background, and all of a sudden I start glitching out. Everything's freezing up, and I'm like, oh my god, I'm freezing up with LA here. Oh no, you're dropping the ball. Oh, this is the worst. So now it's cram when it closes all the windows out. Oh man.
SPEAKER_03This this might be fun, actually. A little rapid fire.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we kind of just loosen it, loosens it up, loosens
The not so Rapid fire round (Old World vs New World, Napa or Bordeaux...)
SPEAKER_00it up a little bit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, all right, all right. Uh all right, so we got old world or new world. This is all personal preference, too. So, like, there's no wrong answer.
SPEAKER_02For sure. Yep. Uh person, I'm gonna say I used to, if you ask me that, maybe 10 years ago, I'd go New World right now, 100% old world. Okay. I'm all in on Berg, I'm all in on Barolo, uh Piedmont, those are those are my go-to regions right now.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Uh mostly reds or or whites on the old old world too.
SPEAKER_02You know what's funny? Right now, I'm really more on whites. I mean, I know it's like the trend and what's happening, but like white berg, I just I can't get enough of it right now. And even before the summer started, this was still like winter into spring. I don't I don't know what's going on, but you know, palettes change, you get older.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm also seeing the new world kind of migrate, especially on the white side, the new world migrating to more old world style, which I prefer on the white side in particular. I've always drank white old world. That's been my preference. Whether it's, you know, searing acid rieslings from Alsace or or white burgundy, sans serre. Um, there there are some phenomenal whites. And I always was a little, I don't know, I get fatigued real quick from one glass of you know the classic California Chardonnay. Uh yeah, it's got impact on on entry. Uh, but you know, it's not a food wine. And I think that's that's at the end of the day, that's what I go for. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I I totally agree. And that, you know, I I've had this phase of um Rhone Blancs, right? Like Blancs, Gigandos Blancs that are just like not only the acidity is there, but there's this roundness and fullness to those wines. Yeah. Uh almost something spicy that make them tremendous food wines and like really versatile with pairings.
SPEAKER_03So so I'm we're gonna go off on a
Not enough Old World influence in Napa Valley...
SPEAKER_03little tangent here, but uh we in Navy, we have we have a major issue with not having enough old world influence or other regions for that matter, at a retail level in particular. Uh so you're probably familiar with Gary's, right? Gary's wine shop. He's got a couple places down in uh Rotten and New New Jersey. He had taken over the old spot at uh where Dean and DeLuca was, and it was such a welcome uh uh event to have a number of wines, and he had like this great section that was like under 25 bucks, and you go in and you you were able to just kind of you know be a little more casual about I'm gonna try just a smattering of randomness from all around the world um and not break the bank. And there were some true gems in there. Uh, and and it, you know, just as a winemaker and somebody who gets to taste the whole spectrum of top tier all the way down to you know your most pedestrian wines, it was great to have that option. So I'm hoping at some point somebody comes back in a Napa and brings that vibe into their onto their shelves, uh, rather than just, you know, we all love our grocery stores and all that in the West Coast, but uh there's just not the uh the there the there's no eclecticism, um, which I'm not always the biggest fan of that when it comes to like the psalm culture, but it is nice from a retail environment to have a little more of an array that cycles through and you try new things, you have great options out there. Uh so yeah, that was uh that that was a ton of fun. So I missed that.
SPEAKER_02I I had a but yeah, it totally makes sense. And I I can understand it, right? Because that's what you all are are are growing and making and that that's new world style. And it's um I I remember being out there years ago and I was visiting White Rock um vineyards right up on the uh behind Stag's leap over there. Yeah. And uh, you know, everyone in that it's it coming from New York to me, there's nothing better than going out and visiting California, just being ensconced and engulfed in in the culture and the talk, and because everyone from you know the the greeter at the tasting room to whoever's growing the grapes, they're all you know, everyone's just so into it and passionate and and knowledgeable without being, you know, pretentious or you know, over the top. And so I was with one of my wine uh broker friends, and we go to White Rock and we go through the tasting, and it's great, you know, the shard, the claret, you know, the uh the I forget the Laurentis, Napa Cat killer. And um, as we're leaving, my buddy goes to the the tasting room manager's like, by the way, if you ever you know want something outside of Napa stuff, you know, I bring in some some cool things, I I bring in like Crew Beaujolais and I bring in grower champagne, and uh and so he goes through, he's like, Um, you know, what what do you like to drink? And she's like, Crew Beaujolais and Grower Champagne. And it was just it was like, whoa, look what this guy's got, right? Like outside of the the norm that um that's going on out there. So it's it is definitely resonates what you're saying.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, we are we are not myopic out here. We're uh we we love the wines we produce, but uh, but we also like to know what everybody else is doing out there.
A Gary's Wine & Marketplace tale (welcome to the neighborhood)
SPEAKER_03So that's good.
SPEAKER_00I was also gonna say that I got a funny kind of uh Gary story just to throw it out there for a little tangent. Yeah. Because since you mentioned him and we're like talking about like East Coast vibes and stuff like that. So Gary became our neighbor um a couple like that was like a couple years ago, yeah. A few years ago, because they took over uh we had we were right next to a Dean De Luca. They left, and then Gary took over. Yeah. So on 29, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. On 29. So we when he first came into town, us we were we have uh our copper cane HQ and a bunch of us wanted to get together and say, hey, let's guy go over and welcome Gary. He's there, you know, in person, and you know, just welcome in the neighborhood and everything. So we all go over there and we're all like saying hi and introducing ourselves. We we came in with like 10 people too. You could just tell people just been coming in and out and just like you know, he was kind of on, I think, all day. And uh, and I kind of liked it because it was such a just reminding me. I used to live in Jersey and uh New York for a bit. So it was that it was that kind of like uh style, that kind of like uh attitude that I missed. And when we're all kind of saying hi and everything, he's like, great. I mean, I really enjoy everyone coming in and saying hi and welcoming me in the community, but no one's buying anything. Like why are you buying anything? So then I'm like sitting there and I'm like, okay, I got this guy. Like, I get you, Gary. I know what's about to build business, right? So I'm just like, I'm gonna buy something, I'm gonna get some of this great coffee you got going here. I've been waiting for some good coffee to come right next door. I'm a big coffee guy, so I go over there. I order this, like, I don't know, you know, like triple shot, like cappuccino, like, you know, it's gonna be all good. So then, and then I realized I forgot my wallet. So then I'm there in front of Gary. Like, I'm like, hey, Gary, I ordered this coffee, but I'm just gonna run next door because I forgot my wallet.
SPEAKER_01He's like, just take the coffee, just take the copy and let it go. And so it was kind of funny that like we walked out of there, you know. Welcome to the neighborhood. Thanks for the free coffee. But we will be back. We will be back to support your business. But it was great to have.
SPEAKER_02He's got your picture up on the wall right now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm sure you were you were in the bag. He's like, do not serve this man. Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but that that was great. Next time he comes in, get him in the uh get him in the bag for dishes.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna be making coffee for everybody else next. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I gotta work off that cappuccino. I did.
SPEAKER_03All right, all right. So I think I know the question or the answer to this next question. So Napa or Bordeaux.
SPEAKER_02Napa or Bordeaux. Uh yeah, that one is hard. That's not a snap easy. Um, I I I would say Bordeaux because of the um versatility. I think if we're talking like Napa Cab, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, yeah, we're going to Napa Caba Cab, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I go to Bordeaux um only because of the versatility of just left bank, right bank, so many different ranges. And I know there's you know different appellations. Now, that being said, if you catch me two months after I come back from Napa, that answers Napa.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, you know, so yeah, it was what was amazing to me. You mentioned the versatility of Bordeaux. Uh what was amazing to me was the first time I went there was 2003. Um, and I figured it was something like Napa size-wise. It's like Napa County, Solano County, Sonoma County, Mendocino County all combined. Like you're you're driving two and a half hours to get from one, you know, like region or area to another. And I was like, oh shit, okay, they got like diversity is definitely there. Like and and Santa Milian was probably my favorite place in in all of Bordeaux. But uh yeah, it was it was uh it was an interesting trek. So I realized real quick Napa's pretty damn small. So yeah, we we have we have some diversity, but not to the magnitude of of that. However, we can
A Bordeaux Pinot?
SPEAKER_03also produce some great Chardonnays and Pinot Noirs with Carneros. I don't know the Bordeaux can do that.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shots fired.
SPEAKER_03I gotta throw a positive Vin.
SPEAKER_02Well, and you know, and there and that to your point, Joe, they're certainly not gonna try, right? They might try uh a Vin de France with something outside of the Appalachian or something like that. But yeah, I'd be a great, I'd be a great wine to try, a Bordeaux Pinot. Oh god, that'd be wild. I mean shit, but I don't I don't even know.
SPEAKER_03Could they even call that a Vin de Pay? They call it Vin de France. They would call it Vin de France, and and they could they could say if they were going in the American market, they could call it a Pinot Noir from France. But that's it. Then the story has to do the marketing.
SPEAKER_02The story has to do with the marketing. We did we I brought in a wine um that was uh from a Bordeaux winemaker and shoot Odyssey, I can't remember uh the producer, but it was half cab, half Syrah. So half Rhone Syrah, half uh cab from I want to say uh Saint Julien, and it's tremendous, and it's Vin de France because you just you can't do that, right? Um, but it's it's a hard sell, it's hard to tell that story of Vin de France because it was a really well-made wine and you know they didn't get scores, it was you know, retail 60, 70 bucks for Vin de France, and it becomes uh becomes a storytelling sale that uh when you get it in front of people and they taste it, they're like, Yeah, that's freaking incredible, right? But just to tell the story at that price point, especially now, people aren't taking that chance as much.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you gotta you gotta have like five people in the chain that are able to carry that story. That's one of the biggest hurdles in wine. And uh especially when you get into the more eclectic side of things. Um I mean, I even just looking at kind of the American consumer mindset versus the
Varietal vs Region/USA vs Europe
SPEAKER_03European consumer mindset and how they're so accustomed or everybody's so accustomed to one thing or the other being yes, we're all educated in wine. So we understand certain regions throughout Europe, uh, let's just take France as an example, they're regulated to certain varieties that they can produce in those regions. Um and and then here, and and so there you buy Bordeaux. Well, you don't know exactly what that blend is, but you know generally what it's made of, and you can probably find some details if you want to. Uh but then you come here to the US and and everybody's saying like Napa is I don't know, the most well, it's the most popular region in in California, the most well-known, most prestigious, so to speak. But uh people still, I think, equate Cabernet Sauvignon as being hierarchical, higher the hierarchy-wise, Cabernet Sauvignon, I think, is more important to the consumer than even Napa is. So it it's it's funny to see that we are all producers of varietal, and they are producers of region. Of region, yeah. And we still we still have an issue educating people on that. Uh I I mean I don't I don't know. I don't know if there's a solution to that, but what what are your thoughts? Maybe we'll figure it out in the next hour.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know what? I I give you a good example. So there's a wine that we um uh we rated as the best buy called Method, right? It's uh made by precision and uh great great line of wines, and the most of the juice, it's California cab, but most of the juice is coming from various areas of Nap and Sonoma. So it's like it can be California cab when you're telling the story of, yeah, it's California. That's because the grapes are from two different regions, so it can't be called one or the other. So I think as long as it's sort of holding some of that provenance and pedigree, like people know where the grapes are coming from. And then I think a lot of it is just trusting the source and trusting, you know, who your go-to guy is. And whether it's your, you know, uh Joe at the local wine shop who just knows your palate and puts you on to the right thing or the right reviewer or the right publication, the more you get to trust what you like, regardless of is it Napa, is it Sonoma, is it Mendocino? And it's just, yeah, that's the kind of wine that hits my palate, right? I feel like that's that's the path, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But it's yeah, I mean, hell, if you if you can find a reliable person that starts to learn what you like and they get something new in and they give you a call, like that that's that's the the best of the best scenario. Um, I I I so I I have a I like guns, I shoot guns, and the gun shop that I go to, they've learned what I like. And so if they get something in, they'll give me a call. And here in California, we have some pretty heavy heavy regulations like you guys do. So it's it's it's like you know, there was a period where you can only buy one gun every certain you know number of days. I know that sounds like a lot, but anyway, so it but it was that level of service. I was like, I'm gonna keep going back to those guys. I know I'm not getting the best deal that's out there, but they give me the service, and uh, and and once I get to know you, so and I think you guys have that on the East Coast much more than we do on the West Coast. Somebody looking out for you, and that's the beauty of independent retail, I would say, as well.
SPEAKER_02Sure. But I think that's also because people are members of so many more wineries and wine clubs and going out to the ones that they enjoy, right, without having to hit the retail spots as often. You you tell me, but like when I'm out there, I I I never go to a wine shop because I'm only out there for you know a handful of days. So I'm like, how many wineries can I pack into you know three days to get there? But I would have to assume, you know, here in Westchester, you know, the closest winery that you want to go is an hour away, right? So you have to be dependent on wine retail, whether it's in-person or or e-commerce. Uh whereas in California you have so many more resources and just places to go, and let's hit this winery, and then you walk out with a case, right?
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's yeah, that's pretty common. That is pretty common. That is pretty fun too. Um, you know, I I do think that one other point that I'd I'd like to make on this is that uh the consumers don't understand that the reason for the way America labels its wine versus other countries, namely Europe, is more it's a regulatory issue. It's it's not by preference. Um I think
Wine regulation and those off-region wines that are killer...
SPEAKER_03that fact alone is something that if if people are hearing uh what is the reason for it, it's because the way that their regulations in France work and how they monitor and allow only certain things to be done within their regions uh or varietals per region. Here in California, we have some other elements that are tighter, but a lot of other elements that are much looser in the sense of us being able to varietally state and then appellate uh uh and and vintage date wine. So uh yeah, regulation is is uh is the key factor in what is really screwing up, I think, more cohesive marketing and global wine.
SPEAKER_02I I I totally agree. And what's I mean, I always go back to the Super Tuscan story, right? Where the Ornalias and the Ting and Day were just like, you know what? We don't need Keonti. It's all right, we're good, we're gonna grow what we want and we're gonna make what we want because we know our wines are that good. Um, which I don't know if it's not happened or hasn't been successful in Bordeaux. And I've seen some of it in Burgundy where it's just like, you know, uh declassified certain appellation um Pinot, which is fantastic. Um but like that rogue winemaker spirit that really worked. I don't know if that's worked anywhere else yet, instead of uh outside of that that original like Super Tuscan group, you know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that that was that was very cool when that started up. I think the only other one that I would kind of point to would be that new guard that came in probably like late 90s, early 2000s into Porto, into Portugal in general. Um they were having a hell of a time selling fortified wine or or port, and they started using these their you know, old world varietals to make these powerful reds that were and they still are, they're beautiful wines. Uh you don't get to see them that often. And they're they're whites. I will also say they've got some goddamn good, brisk, brilliant whites. But uh yeah, it's like you said, where do you see them? Like they're so hard to find here. That's the problem.
SPEAKER_01It's hard to find now. So hard to find now, those brilliant bright whites.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but now but now I can find a certico almost everywhere I fucking go. Like, yeah, what do you what is Greece doing that that that Portugal forgot about?
SPEAKER_02So funny, right? Certico is like flourishing all over here, right? And uh and Ariortico, right? I there's more Ariortico than I see in New York than I do, than a Dwarel red.
SPEAKER_03It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Bring those Duoro reds back.
SPEAKER_00I love I love that we're having a blast. So we get like a good uh introduction in just for those that are Oh shit.
SPEAKER_03You want me to dude? I've only gotten two through two of the rapid fire.
SPEAKER_01Dude, that's the funny thing. We always like laugh at ourselves. Like, people are getting to know that go with your palette is so rapid.
SPEAKER_03Well, well, and our version of our version of rapid fire is like a 20-minute conversation. That's yeah, all right. Yeah, yeah. So welcome to go with your palette. Uh, thank
Welcome Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW
SPEAKER_03you very much for being here. We got a special guest today. We got Marshall Tilden. Marshall Tilden the third. Yes. Uh, and we got to go through your credentials. You are the president of Wine Express and wine education at Wine Enthusiast. Did I get all that right? Yeah, you did. Thank you. I appreciate you guys having me here, man. That is awesome. One of one of the very few and proud uh um publications that is out there educating people on wine around the world through uh Wine Enthusiast. Uh it's been been a longtime favorite of ours uh as well. And uh and then on the wine express side, um, you uh you are overseeing a uh a good portion of retail, or or maybe I'll call e-com direct to consumer business. Uh is that mostly in the wine side, or are you also in kind of the wine trinkets as well?
SPEAKER_02Uh no. Well, so wine enthusiast, and thanks again for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you. It's gonna be great. So um wine trinkets,
Wine Enthusiast: the four wine industry arms of excellence
SPEAKER_02I like that term. So there's uh there's actually three three arms, uh well, four now. There's wine enthusiast magazine, media, ratings, reviews, events, right? That's the probably the most well known. And then there's wine enthusiast commerce, which is accessories, glassware, wine storage, wine cellars, wine racks, um, which is actually the biggest part of the business, um, which people are usually surprised at. I did not know that. All right. Yeah, so that's actually the the beast of uh of what we do. We have five warehouses, we sell thousands of wine sellers uh to consumers' catalogs, to B2B. Um, and then there's Wine Express, which is the wine retail shop uh of wine enthusiasts. And it actually came about because we had such a big um wine storage business um that people were like, Well, can you just sell me some wine too? And uh the owners, Adam uh Strom was uh at the time, they were like, uh well, yeah, we probably should do that, right? So they created uh a wine retail uh shop, right? And it is e-commerce, right? There's there's um, I mean, there's always a a store, but uh we're really a uh an e-commerce platform for uh for wine retail. And then Cork Encompass is the newest, so Cork Encompass is travel because we're seeing experiences and um you know, just wine country uh excursions uh were becoming so popular. So now you can go to Sicily, you can go to Tuscany, you can go to Bordeaux, you can go to Burgundy, and be hosted by a wine enthusiast reviewer and editor, and they'll give master classes. You walk to the vineyards, you talk to the winemakers. It's a really you know luxury wine travel experience. So um those are sort of we're trying to we're trying to give everything just wine culture, wine related that people are looking for uh all in one one stop shop.
SPEAKER_03I do love that cork and compass idea and that that curated experience where you kind of take some of the guestwork out, but you know you're gonna have a goddamn great experience because I always say this you go to any wine region, you're going to be uh greeted with great hospitality, great wine, great food, great ambiance, and beauty around you. Um and and uh if you if you want to travel and also fall in love with something, wine is The way to go. Yeah, so it and uh okay, so uh I I did want to ask about the uh before we get into how you got where you're at.
How does Wine Express work?
SPEAKER_03Um when it comes to wine express, uh how how does that work? And and are you curating uh certain bottles for your wine club members that are that are getting a shipment and what your deal struck? I mean, how much can you divulge about the inner workings of what's going on there? Sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I so it's interesting. Um wine is in terms of a retail uh business, is right now it's tough, right? It's tough on the sense that people are just overall, unfortunately, not drinking enough wine, but there's become such a competitive um structure online to uh just pricing that it's really great for consumers makes it really difficult to actually make money in the business right now. You have just monsters out there of Total Wine and Costco that are doing so much, so much volume of mainstay names. Uh and what we've tried to do is provide what our you know wine enthusiast customers are are looking for, people who are collecting, people who are reading, and they read a review on, you know, I don't know, on a wine and it gets X amount of points. And it could be from us, could be from spectator, whoever, and they want to buy it, but then all of a sudden, you know, you look at what you have to bring it in for cost and how much you have to sell it for, and you're like, I might lose money on this deal after I have to ship this wine to this customer, and then is it even worth it, right? Um, so what we try to do and what I try to do in Wine Express, because I really taste everything that comes through um to make sure that not only I like it, that knowing our customer's palate that they'll enjoy it too, uh, is to try and find these values. And as you guys know, there's there's a lot of wine out there right now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you know, there's a lot of unlabeled, a lot of um just just just juice. And so I'll try and find things that I know are values. Some have scores, some some don't, but I know our values compared to things that people know, right? So if somebody knows they love prisoner, somebody knows they love silver oak, well, let me let me taste this cab that's from Nap and wow, that really tastes pretty similar, but maybe is gonna be a little bit less because it doesn't have the same marketing dollars behind it, right? So then it just becomes sort of a trusting of all right, if you like these wines, try these. And if you like them, then we're saving a lot of money, and maybe you come back for another shot at it, right? So um that's that's sort of the wine express culture. And we do make samplers and we do have clubs based on you know different price points and those kind of things. Um, but it's more about finding discovery and and wines you probably never heard of um and giving them a shot sort of blindly, which is uh an interesting uh interesting marketing uh situation to handle, right?
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, I yeah, you could say it's it's blind from the consumer standpoint, but it's also them putting their confidence, the confidence behind you. Um you know, to if if they like what you've been providing in the past, they're likely gonna like it in the future. And maybe not every wine is a perfect fit for their palate, but wine is an experience and and part of the journey is is is the joy of it. Um so it is, I mean, from your the levels of club, you you guys do like a case a quarter, is like what what are the different levels of colours?
SPEAKER_02Yeah,
Wine be clubb'in
SPEAKER_02so well, you know, clubs actually weren't really a mainstay for us as much as sampler packs. Um so we have customers that come back to our recommendations. Um, and what we offer is really a customized club experience a lot of times. So if someone, you know, we know they like Napa Cab, um, you know, we'll bring in different ones and set up a sampler for that month, right? And that'll be the sampler month. And um so it's anywhere from three bottles to yeah, like you know, six packs, cases not as much. We find the cases were dwindling off because it was just too much wine. And um part of what happened, and it was part of our wine storage story, is we found out and we, you know, worked with some wineries, is that people stopped getting the bigger uh shipments because they just didn't have storage for it. Uh right. All of a sudden, yeah, all of a sudden they'd just be sitting, you know, two cases outside of their wine coolers, and so that's where we we everything is symbiotic, right? So if people were buying wine, they don't have enough room for it. Well, that's really interesting because we just have some wine coolers that might help your might help your situation, right? So so it becomes that it becomes that one-stop shop, right? Our our tagline for years ago was our you know, your source for everything wine, which I used to love. Just a great way to put that. Your your education, your entertainment, your wine storage, your wine, your travel, your experiences, just come here and we got you covered for everything, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you created a universe. It's a that's that I think it's that's a beautiful thing. That's people want simplicity and they want uh they want you know as high level of a touch as you can provide. Um and uh and also the uh the the understanding that they can rely upon your guidance. I think that's you can't get better than that.
SPEAKER_02And it's a
Wine Enthusiast origin & beyond
SPEAKER_02and it's a really a credit to the strong family. So Adam and Sybil uh created this in their garage, you know, in 19 uh 79 because they were looking for openers and glasses, and then back then you couldn't find them, right? So they said, this is crazy. We should be able to just sell these. And and so they created this out of their garage. You know, decades later, it became this, like you said, this wine enthusiast universe. Their daughters, Erica and Jackie, are taking over the two channels, Erica for Commerce and Jackie for um media. And it's really uh it's an incredible story, an incredible family story of how wine enthusiasts not only came about, but the next generation that's being passed on to, and um how to make sure things are unified, that we are one universe, but making sure also that um, you know, people are aware uh of all we do because you'll find we find we we joke about it here all the time. People know one or the other, right? They know we sell wine cellars, but they didn't realize we have a magazine, or they know we do ratings, but they didn't know that we sell wine. So it, you know, trying to get everyone to understand that, yeah, we we we got it all, guys. We can do whatever you need.
SPEAKER_00It would be kind of crazy to see someone that took the avenue where they're like, I knew you did wine storage, but you do ratings?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just for some guys that grew up here, right? We're just like, uh so you think about it, right? When a wine, like a restaurant appliance, like like restaurant appliance or appliance dealers that are going in and going and opening a new restaurant, right? And they're looking for six, you know, Vino View wine sellers or six EuroCov sellers, and they say, Oh, but there's wine enthusiasts. I have to come to them because that's their their brand, their sellers, that's what's being specced out. And then they buy it all, and then we send the magazine. They're like, Oh, you guys rate wine? You you review wine, you have articles about wine, too, because they're they're not in, they're not in the wine industry, but then they might be into wine, and then all of a sudden, oh, look at this new world that just opened up for me. So that's really our biggest challenge is how do we get everybody, you know, under one umbrella knowing about everything that we can do. So it's interesting.
SPEAKER_03I mean, what I'm what I'm curious about is as we all know, wine has been going through a tumultuous time. Uh, everybody's been seeing there's some shiny spots out there, but by and large, like it's it's pretty rough. I mean, we're seeing vineyards being torn out left and right out here. And balance is coming, that's how I feel. Bottom is coming, uh, and and we're holding our own. I'm really, really proud of our whole team, our wines. Uh, but nonetheless, it's not, it's the industry is not in a healthy place. And if the industry is in a healthy place, we're all doing great, right? So I I would love nothing more for that to happen uh as soon as possible. But what have you guys seen from uh your level of of of that that magnitude, whatever it may be, of uh impressions and and just how many people you touch and and and and work with? How have you seen that move in the last say five years or maybe even going kind of pre-COVID post-pre-COVID to now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, that's that's how we really have to look at it, right? Because COVID for us, you know, people stopped going out to restaurants, people couldn't travel, and so they stayed home. So all the you know, money that they they were spending to go away, and they were now not only beautifying their home, but just getting wine shipped to their door because that became what you did, right? You sat home, you drank wine, you you know, you made your backyard your vacation spot, and everyone, you know, upgraded what their their living scenario was. And then once COVID was done, everyone was like, get me out of the freaking house.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_02I'm going to Europe. I'm going out to dinner every night. Uh, and so, you know, it was uh, you know, a peak and valley. Um, so yeah, it feels like it's you know, it's been evening out, and you know, we always compare to like the pre-COVID and the post-COVID. Um, it's interesting now, and and you know, you read about it everywhere, the the Gen Z, the millennials, what are you know, what are they doing? What are they drinking? Are they drinking? Um, so you know, we see a wine enthusiast customer, like someone who's into wine storage and and and collecting, and um maybe a little bit different than somebody who's following us on social looking at like the cocktail recipes and you know some of the the more fun stuff that we do. So our our span is huge, right? We're and purposely, we're trying to touch everyone along their journey, right? We're trying to touch someone who's just had their first wine, and they're like, oh, that's interesting. What's that, right? Because it's not a seltzer or uh whatever it is that they're drinking. And then, oh, you want to know more about that? Great. Come on in. Let us let us tell you, right? Let us let us not even tell you, let us share with you some of the things that we've found out and see if it's interesting to you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's a great route. If you if you guys got that at your fingertips, that's that's the way you you you know get people curious and then and then let them dive in.
SPEAKER_02Oh, sorry, no, because we do it from them that side, the media side, and then also from the collecting side, because all of a sudden someone goes to Napa, someone comes to visit you guys, and they love the wine, they've had the experience, they buy two cases of wine, and then they come home and they're like, Well, what am I gonna do with this? Right. So that's when you have the small little compact wine cellars that hold 12 bottles, 24 bottles, and now all of a sudden someone has their first wine cooler, right, in their apartment, in their home that holds two cases. And it's like, it's a big deal, right? It's a big moment that they're now collecting wine. So we're really trying to, you know, bring them into the wine world early on in the journey and then just be there along the way for everything that they need.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and I I think that there's something I've been thinking about recently and and how to kind of showcase
The Wine Moment
SPEAKER_03it is that there's like the wine moment, right? And and we we talk about it where it's whether it's going to your cellar and you're really proud of the wines that you've uh brought in, whether it's a case or two cases or 2,000 bottles, and you grab one that you you you think you're going to enjoy with whatever you're going with your company and your food that night, and then you open it and you have that first smell, that first taste, the first look. You talk about it, it's a pretty brief moment, really, but call it 30 minute 30 seconds to 60 seconds. That's the moment where everything stops, everything slows down, and then after that, it's it it kind of resets the tone, right? That's I think that's one of the most beautiful parts about it, and uh, and that's that's where I think people once they get hooked on that, it's not just like an aspirational element of wine, uh, it becomes part of lifestyle. Totally. Yeah. Wine lifestyle talk about all the time.
SPEAKER_00And I was gonna talk about too, because you've brought we've brought up the generations, and you know, there's been a lot of talk about, you know, them drinking less or you know, simplifying this educational piece, which I think that you're killing it on, especially in social media. Because I think of like growing up here and stuff, you know, and we've talked about a lot, it really wasn't for me until I moved out like right after high school and lived a city life that I realized there was a pretentiousness around this wine world. You know, I mean it was kind of like growing up here, which is farmers first. They just happen to farm grapes, and that's just kind of what you did. So what I love is what you're doing is like, first of all, making it very digestible to take this like education and and even if people are interested in what is a W set, which I hope we can also get into too in the educational piece, but you know, like really breaking it down like blick. I thought that was like really great. That's already like stuck in my head, right? And the the the balance length uh complexity, and um now I'm like a blank intensity, yeah. And uh thank you. But I'm like, just spell it out, Chris. It's right there for you, and you just you know, but uh but anyways, but that's cool, right? Because it kind of like it's less than a minute, and you can kind of like break down this thing of when people are looking like, why am I gonna get this more expensive bottle compared to this, this lex less expensive? What's making the difference? So if you want to speak upon that a little bit more too, like how you got there, did you see it evolve? And have you seen that you've gotten to getting them
Marshall dialing in his impactful wine influencer voice
SPEAKER_00shorter and shorter, find these little little tricks?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, no, it's uh thank you very much, by the way. I appreciate it because um, you know, it's mildly intentional, but it it it it's just how I talk about wine passionately, right? Like it came out naturally. Um, so I don't know uh if anyone remembers, but for Wine Express, Josh Farrell was uh was here and he was the wine director for years. He passed with my best friend. I uh he passed away of pancreatic cancer uh a few years ago. And uh and so I was always helping him on just on the back end on you know, what are we gonna bring in? What do we like? Can we sell it? Can we market it? You know, all this kind of stuff. And Josh had these really long, if you go back and look at him, these really long, like five, six, seven-minute videos, and he was very calming and like ASMR, right? Like that was how he was doing it. And it was great. Like he was he was like the Bob Ross of wine video, and so I'm watching him, and I'm like, I'm I'm just I'm he was like my mentor. I got so much information from him, he was just so smart about wine, and and I'm like, I don't know if I can do it like that. I'm like, I don't know if I can talk that slow or that soft, and so I came out and just started doing my style, but I thought it had to be long because that's how he was doing it, right? And then the more we were just doing videos, I'm like, do people really care about like not only you know the elevation, but what the yields per liter and this? And I'm like, why don't we just simplify this just a little bit? Because there's like wine geek talk, like that I can get into and love it, but the masses don't really want to get in that deep, right? They want to get into what's the wine taste like, where's it from, why am I gonna like it, and you know, where's the value or what are the heading points? So I I'd say it was purposeful in the sense I'm like, I need to keep it under two minutes. Um, although sometimes I'm like, I need to keep it under two minutes. Uh but it was more just like, how do I make it really approachable? And you use the word, how do we lose the pretension, right? How do we put it out there so people don't feel like uh, you know, and I don't, I don't, I don't really understand. And then they get that intimidated feel of like, I just I'll just stick with vodka, right?
SPEAKER_01Um, that's a sad, that's a sad comment, man. That breaks my heart. Yeah, we'll stick with charcoal filters, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Stick with this. But I do it, but I'll do it with friends at restaurants. So like we'll get a bottle and they'll be like, what do you taste? What are you getting? And like when I do it, all of a sudden we'll drink like two or three bottles. Because all of a sudden, like you said, Joe, you're making it the experience, right? You're putting it out in front where those moments are becoming enjoyable because not because someone's telling you what you need to smell or taste, but just giving some very easy insight that allows you for your palate and your own just you know, enjoyment measure to to really feel what's going on in that moment. And that's that's what's important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and and and in in that that kind of moment,
The Power of Suggestion (Wine Palate Breakdown)
SPEAKER_03I mean, the power of suggestion is is real. Once people click with something that that you give them the idea of, and you know, given that it it takes a long time to develop your palate and to be able to call out the I think that was the hardest thing for me to overcome as I hate to say it, but like as a teen, but trying to learn how to decipher through notes, aromatics, flavors, and and then and then learning textures and and balance later. But being able to actually verbalize that and go into your catalog of what those characters are, once you get people down that road and they start to get confidence in their own palette and realize, oh yeah, I do get that. Like, oh yeah, that that does have like some mocha characters. I do get some coconut. I you know, it then they start to realize, like, okay, I actually have this, I just need to develop it. Um, and uh, and actually, I I've got these like board, these sheets uh that that have every varietal on them, and then kind of like all the spectrum of of potential common flavors. Yeah, it's like a wheel. Uh it's like that, but you know, visualized, I guess. And they're great. Like I used to use them for people that had just come in. I'm like, I want you to just look at this. You're tasting the Chardonnay, and just look at each one of these elements that they're calling out and see if you pick any of them up. Um, and that was a different way to kind of categorize power of suggestion, but it did help them develop their palate. Uh so and you're doing the same. I mean, yeah, your your social media is phenomenal. Uh, and I mean, I think we're both doing a good job.
SPEAKER_02I really appreciate that coming from you, Joe. I do, because I feel the same about yours. It's it's awesome, right?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I just can't believe that people are watching you and I, these two like kind of middle-aged guys, like, you know, talking to you're young at heart.
SPEAKER_01You can get younger. You guys are on
Dad Influencers in the Wine Industry #killingit
SPEAKER_01me. I don't know about you. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03He's like, hey, I don't on that point, you've you've got you've got kids, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and are they are they of uh of age uh to consider?
SPEAKER_02No, they're uh they're 16 and 14. So my son just just got his permit. So uh that's uh been an interesting couple months. It's fun, slightly scary, and a couple couple near death experiences, but no, there so you know, uh I grew up, uh, even though my name is very English, I grew up in an Italian family. Uh my dad didn't have any family, like not a not a sister, not a nothing. And so he got taken into my mom's family, which is Memeli, uh, who came from Napoli. And uh so we had Sunday dinners every, you know, literally every week at my at my grandparents, and it was always Chianti on the table. There was always, you know, wine was part of uh our culture. Um and so, you know, by 13, 14, you're not drinking, but you have a little bit of wine with dinner, right? So I'm I'm of that that European mind of I don't like the taboo. Um, the taboo I feel is is dangerous, especially in this day and age because there's just so much access to so many dangerous things out there. Yeah, that's true. You know, it's it's a it's a rough thing, you know, to to be in a wine industry and and have kids um and and to make it uh understandable um without making it to a point where like anything else, you tell someone not to do something, the first thing they want to do is do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, he's got six. I think you know that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I've got six. None of them are of of of legal drinking age, but it's how old how old are you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, how old's your oldest?
SPEAKER_03Uh I got twins that are 20 and then uh down to twelve. So it's yeah, twins that are 20, 18, 17, 15, and 12. So um, but yeah, that you know, we did take that European mentality and and kind of culture and you know, have them start learning about it even at an early age, smelling and and seeing the difference, and I would categorize I'd pull, you know, like five different roses, and that's kind of how from all around the world. Five different sparklings, five different, you know, uh cabernets, and and have them kind of smell and go through and give me their thoughts. And it was even, I mean, I remember it like well, I probably shouldn't say at like a very young age, just seeing there's a purity to their palate or their their ability to smell and decipher that and I no joke, it got lost at sometime like 10 to 14, but it was still back there. But you could I've got videos of them like smelling wines, and yeah, like Dominic, who who's now 17, he would just like spew out like I smell this, this, and this, and I'm like, holy shit, you got a super palate, dude. Yeah, you're all over. We gotta develop, we gotta develop this, develop this, and uh and he he's he's got it back, but you know, like but back then there was just no, and I think this goes back to the pretension point. There was nothing holding him back back from being able to say whatever was coming to his mind. He didn't feel that there was a bit of embarrassment. He could have said it tasted or smelled like shit. And you know, he wouldn't have cared. He knew, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's so I I use the to your point. I use the uh first off, my daughter had the best one. I had her smelling something uh you know, babies when they were young, just literally from the north. I'm like, oh, what does it smell like? And she's like, oh, grapes and hand sanitizer.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, I love it. I'm like, it's kind of what it is, you know. Would it hit the tasting notes? I don't know, you know, like with the in the aromas, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03We should we should just do that. Just release it wine and just be like, uh, the tasting notes are grapes and hand sanitizer.
SPEAKER_00I'll tell you what though, that that would have flew off the shelves during COVID. Hey, it's clean.
SPEAKER_01We're safe here, right? Here the sanitizer shit.
SPEAKER_03What were people supposed to be doing? Was it Clorox?
SPEAKER_00People were they were using bleach on their food and cleaning their bleaching their vegetables and stuff. But uh, Marshall, actually, you did touch on something great that I would kind of like to dive into a little bit, this kind of like Italian upbringing. So you were introduced to wine at at a young age. Would you say that was kind of what the path was already led to you there? Like kind of for this.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it was it. Yeah, yeah, it's it definitely started that way. Unbelievable. I know next week.