Go With Your Palate
Joe Wagner, 5th Generation Winemaker, presents the podcast "Go With Your Palate." A podcast about wine, entrepreneurship, and whatever the F else. So buckle up - this isn't your normal wine podcast.
Go With Your Palate
E95 Dave Kuba pt 2 | Joe Wagner
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
The guy behind House of Villains, Flavor of Love, Fast Foodies, and reality TV chaos just joined the podcast.
Dave Kuba pulls back the curtain on how hit reality shows are really made—and yes, we even pitched him our own Napa Valley reality show.
🎙️ Go With Your Palate: Dave Kuba | Reality TV Chaos, Villains & Behind-the-Scenes Gold
This week, we sit down with the man quietly responsible for some of the wildest moments in reality TV history - Dave Kuba, Executive Producer and EVP of Development & Current Programming at Irwin Entertainment. If you’ve ever watched a reality show and thought, “How is this even happening right now?”… there’s a good chance Dave had something to do with it.
From the early chaos of Change of Heart, Flavor of Love, and I Love New York to Fast Foodies, The Apprentice, and the beautifully unhinged House of Villains, Dave walks us through his incredible journey from reality TV’s early days to helping shape what millions binge-watch today. We dive into what makes a hit show actually work, the madness of casting unforgettable personalities, and what it’s like sitting on both sides of the pitch table - selling ideas and hearing them.
And because this is Go With Your Palate, we couldn’t resist pitching Dave our own Napa Valley reality show concepts. Let’s just say Fat Mario may still need to work out a few creative kinks… and possibly pass a psych eval before cameras roll 👀.
We also get into the psychology behind why people love villains, how reality TV has evolved in the TikTok era, and the surprising amount of strategy hidden behind the “controlled chaos” viewers see on screen.
It’s insightful, hilarious, and packed with behind-the-scenes stories from one of the sharpest minds in unscripted television.
Whether you’re a reality TV junkie, a creator with a wild idea, or just curious how the sausage gets made in Hollywood - this episode delivers.
Grab a glass and prepare for some beautifully produced chaos. 🍷📺🔥
All right, today we got a special guest on Wet Your Palette. We've got Dave Kuba. He works in all things uh really reality TV. I was trying to remember the word that he described it as unscripted. That's it. Unscripted.
SPEAKER_00Unscripted.
SPEAKER_03And it's a reality. We've come back around. Okay, okay. I I know it's what I'm saying. You got to change it once in a while, keep it fresh. I get it. Uh, but no, it we man, the stories we went through today. Thank you for opening up about it. Uh talking about a number of things from your current shows, previous shows, wild times. Uh the Joe Wagner reality show coming soon.
SPEAKER_01We're making a deal. Or we're in the creation of it. We're just we're just snitballing right now.
SPEAKER_02But I like seeing Chris's eyes light up when I'm talking about Too Hot to Handle. He's definitely going home to watch that tonight.
SPEAKER_00No, Dave. Yo, you're right.
SPEAKER_03Well as well. Well, Dave, thank you for joining us. Uh check out his uh current show, House of Villains, right now, please. And uh, and and just go back into time and enjoy the stuff that he has been providing as far as great entertainment for at this point generations, going on three at least.
SPEAKER_02We didn't even get to talk about my experience on The Apprentice with our current president, but that's a story for another time. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03So I I did want to get into the psychology of this whole thing, but I think that's really interesting. And I'm I'm I'm sure Dave knows a lot more about it than than us. But like, and you had mentioned uh Cops, which since I was a kid, like Cops was really the first kind of reality TV, but it wasn't reality. I mean, it was overly re realistic, but you didn't have like the back of house drama to to kind of see where it ended up. It was just all of a sudden some criminal gets tackled, handcuffed, and there's cameras in their face, and then you kind of see some of that stuff, right? But it wasn't really the storyline wasn't there, it was just you were waiting for that moment, right? And it it was like I was addicted to it, I loved watching it, but it seems like that psychology can
Psychology behind reality TV
SPEAKER_03continue to carry forward. Um, but I don't know what that psychology is. Is it just are we wanting to live through other people's happiness and and pain?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's a little bit of a like a uh a voyeur, right? Like like gossip, you hear about somebody you know and something that's going on behind closed doors, and you can either like see yourself and people, or you like uh, or you're like that person has a completely different worldview and a different personality than I do, and that's fascinating too. So I think it's just yeah, people are interesting and people are weird and people are are different, and sometimes you know, truth is stranger than fiction in a way. Like, yeah, you know, we we have such constraints in what we do in ways that people don't even my wife's a scripted writer, and she's always like, you know, I just say on the page, I want this to happen, and it does. You have this idea of what might happen, and then you gotta actually react to what does happen and then turn that into a story. And sometimes it could just be nothing. Like, I've had shoots where we go out and we're like, oh wow, this celebrity couple we shot, we we sold them hard and now we're here and they're boring. What can we do to make this less boring? We gotta go into them and be like, hey guys, what if we do this or that, or like, you know, like you have to think of ways to make regular people more interesting. I like like competitions and formats where you find just great characters and there's rules and there's the gameplay or there's whatever it is that naturally drives story instead of just like we're going in your most people's lives, are not that interesting. Like, even celebrities are boring. So you end up when you work on one of those shows, a lot of times it's like you're only shooting for three weeks. So you're like, okay, catch me up on your life since we filmed last season. Well, we've been talking a lot about wanting to have a baby off camera. So now we're like, okay, well, what if you have any friends with kids? What if you went over to their house and played with their kid and that then that's the conversation comes up. You can have those conversations about whether you're ready again. So it's almost like it's not as like it doesn't flow as naturally, but a lot of times, you know, even though you prompt them and they're talking about something they've already talked about, it it becomes, you know, it goes to new levels or it they there's new parts of the conversation that you are there to capture. So like a lot of the doc you series, which is like, you know, people in their lives being followed, yeah, are a lot maybe more state. I don't know, they're not scripted, they're just like planned out in advance with the cast, more so they're given more direction ahead of time. Where like literally, like on House of Villains, Joe McHale walks in and goes, This is what you're doing today, and they're like, Oh my god, they're really shocked, and then they gotta do this challenge, and then someone's in danger, and they know they have to hey, you're gonna eliminate somebody later. See you later, and all this great stuff just naturally come. So I like things like that. I love going to work and not having any idea what's gonna happen. Like I like being a little nervous, like, ooh, so yeah, it's gonna work. I think it's that's a great point.
SPEAKER_03So you have that element of it in in kind of your favorite line of the work where there's purpose behind it versus just purely voyeurism, uh, and and you're you're hoping to get something exciting for viewers to be voyeuristic. Uh, whereas in in this case, yeah, that that makes that makes a ton of sense.
SPEAKER_02Because I do put it. But still, like on House of Villains, like what's so interesting, like, even though there's this crazy game format and all that, like some of our best stuff that we love putting in the show is just like how so-and-so makes their coffee in a very weird way, or how someone questions the wit, you know, how someone their crazy hair routine that you're like, wow, that's crazy, and you know, it's funny and it's ironic. Like, some of that stuff is interesting too, and you get that, like when people are living in a house together and you just capture those moments. The the the the real world used to film for like three or four months, uh and they would edit
Reality TV shoots: Now vs Past
SPEAKER_02that into the season. And the Osborne's like the first big reality show of the celebrity family, same thing, filmed for four months, and they would take all the best stuff and they put it together and make a thing. As time went on and more of this happened and budgets went down, you needed to make the whole season in three weeks. And that involves a lot of everything has to happen now within our 12-hour filming window. So that added a lot of pressure. When you're on a show like Survivor or House of you know, House of Villains, Big Brothers, things like that, it happens all in three weeks, but everything, but things are a lot of things are happening naturally because every two days there's an elimination, and every other day there's a challenge, it all drives the story a lot quicker.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's crazy. And I think you uh we mentioned before it was well, I always want to touch on it again is with the with the game setup, there's there's there's nothing rigged, right? I mean, like this this is an actual game challenge, this is serious stuff when it comes down to the actual game elements or
The Competition Unscripted TV is no joke (fair game)
SPEAKER_01something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, even though it might not seem like serious stuff ever since you know that movie Quiz Show years ago about the game show industry and people cheating. Whenever there's a prize on the line in any kind of like reality show, it's considered a game show. And there has to be like you have to write up all these rules, have the boy, your lawyers look over them, have the network lawyers look over them, then they hire standards and practices, people who are on set who make sure you're not cheating or not giving anybody any unfair advantages. And so I have to submit all of my games and when I want to do them ahead of time. So I can't people are like, oh, they did this because these three people are in. It's like, no, I submitted these like weeks before. And if I went in and was like, hey, we're gonna change it, they go, Why? And if I could say, like, if I give them a good reason that is like makes sense, or it's like that's one thing if it's fair for everybody, but it can't just it has to be like, why are we doing that? Is everybody okay with that? We read when the Joe or Jeff Propes or whoever I've done other challenge shows, like tells them, Here are the rules for the challenge, go, they know we're gonna stop down. These challenge rules are gonna come out, read them all the rules, and 17 rules that the host never says because it's like if this happens, then this, and if this happens, then this, and you can't do this, and you can't do that, or you'll be disqualified. This is illegal. Okay, raise your right hand. Does anybody have any questions? We walk them through it. There's like 20 questions. Can we do this? Yeah, can I break it? No, you can't break the thing, you gotta use it as it all that kind of stuff. Raise your hand if you understand. No more questions, sign this paper. Okay, we're ready to go. Like all of that happens.
SPEAKER_03It's crazy. Well, I I I learned I learned a couple of new things on that one, man. That's yeah, that's wild. So, yeah, it's what you're saying to the audience out there is that these are classified as game shows and they got to be legitimate if there's prizes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, more or less. They have to be, yeah, yeah, because you I could give my friend a million dollars, like I could give somebody I like a million dollars if I was like rigging the shows, you know. Um I don't know if we're supposed to do this, but like I did this show I Love Money, which was like the flavor of love, rock of love, and I love New York people. And on day one, we all set up a like a random draw where everybody got one member of the cast. And if you're a person, everybody put in like 20 bucks, and if you won, you win the whole pot. Um and my what the person I drew was in the final three, and that show ended with a big race. And it was a big race that ended with a puzzle that everybody was putting together, and once your puzzle was done, you the show was over, you won the whole show. That was the end of the show. My poll, my rate, it was a big relay race ending with a puzzle. I'm done, I win the show. Well, guess who's judging the final that put that puzzle? Like saying you officially win and telling the host to say you officially win me. And guess who was competing in it? I had money on the line in this thing. So I, you know, it I was like, I had some like excitement, and I was like, done, you win, you win. And they were like, winner, winner, and they're like, wait, no, her puzzle things backwards. And I was like, I got just too excited ahead of time, so we had to say stop, start again. She still won. She was far ahead enough ahead that she was probably gonna win. I just got ahead of myself because I had some personal takes and excitement.
SPEAKER_03It's invested interest, man. You're like, we win! We win! You win, you win. I mean, you treat her like a raised dog.
SPEAKER_02It's not like I was trying to influence the game throughout or do anything. There was no like, it was 20 bucks, but it was just kind of fun to, you know, as crew, like watch it and have a horse in the race we're rooting for, but obviously still had to go through all those rules and the thing, so there's possibly no way to make it in your favor, and this is why. But I did get a little too excited when I was calling the the end of the race.
SPEAKER_03I mean, we put money on on people within the company sometimes. Exactly. Yeah. You do?
SPEAKER_01I'm not just hearing about this, too. How do you put money on us?
SPEAKER_03Like who's gonna he doesn't need money?
SPEAKER_01Who's gonna survive? We'll guess what. Whoever has money on me, I was the underdog long shot, and I'm still here.
SPEAKER_00So we're gonna get get that money, baby.
SPEAKER_01Chad, we're splitting the profits. You bet on me, right? You didn't bet on me, Chad? All right. I wish you could.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Chad's gonna turn these bars on it.
SPEAKER_01Um that's great.
SPEAKER_02I want to see those odds, and and you know you want it? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'll send you the odds. I'm telling you, man. I'm gonna go to the back of the book.
SPEAKER_02What would be the metric?
SPEAKER_01Like sales or like uh I don't think that's sales.
SPEAKER_03It could just be a barrel race. I mean, you never know. It's it's just you know, just physical brute strength is what it comes down to.
SPEAKER_02Comedy fuel day carrying barrels across the uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00We've actually we've actually had we actually did that's funny they brought that out because we had the barrels. We had a barrel race with some UFC fighters.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. They're tough, man. We have tried to do some sports stuff too, within with the whole the whole company, you know. We God, what do we do? What the with the inflatable balls? We did that with soccer, so people are like knocking themselves all over the place. You had a guy break his rib, some broken. Oh, those big giant ones? Yeah. He broke his back. Broke his back?
SPEAKER_02Didn't it? I've used those in a few things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, in like challenges. Uh-huh. I've actually never done one. I've always wanted to get one of those.
SPEAKER_03They're not all they're cracked up to be, man.
SPEAKER_01Uh-oh. Yeah. Um, I I like this. I I like finding out too, like how organic your current show, House of Villains, is, like kind of hearing that behind the scenes compared to where there are might be shows. Um, I guess so. First of all, let me clarify this. If if there's prompts,
Keeping the organic momentum (Unscripted vs Scripted)
SPEAKER_01if you have to go in and kind of prompt somebody, is that considered scripted instead of like letting people just kind of run naturally on their characters, like in a challenge, say?
SPEAKER_02I think there's no. I think scripted is like literally like here's what you're this is what's happening today. You're gonna get mad, you're gonna get da-da-da. There's definitely some like, hey, can you guys talk about X? Like, sometimes that happens. Like, okay, you know, hey guys, we got 30 minutes. Why don't you guys start talking about who you might want to put on the block this week, right? We don't really do that even that much on the show, on our show, but there's a lot of that. There's definitely a lot of that in unscripted TV. Yeah. Um moving the story along. Like, we're running out of time, or like, hey guys, like, you know, they you don't want to sit film two people like on an unscripted show talking about the presidential race that will be, you know, first of all, politics, but also that by the time this airs will be over and nobody will care about. Like, you know, we can't talk about anything too current. So it's like, what do we actually care here? And if we're everyone's sitting around listening to these conversations and they get boring sometimes, you everyone's like doom scrolling.
SPEAKER_00You're like, just stop right now.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna we're gonna talk about this. Yeah, okay, I get it.
SPEAKER_02Um I have heard rumors of shows that were more scripted than others. I mean, the Duck Dynasties like later admitted to having scripts, and uh, you know, uh sort of was kind of themselves, but like, you know, themselves scripted in scenarios. They knew the beginning, middle, and end, but then within the thing they were sort of improving as themselves. It's like a weird mix, right? Like, you're not it's not totally curb your enthusiasm, but sort of like that, uh based on the real lives and things they do. Um, but I have heard a few shows that were like I heard one time uh uh uh an old MTV show uh had like people who weren't really dating, dating on the show, and I was like, What? That's crazy. Like to me, that's wild. That's the kind of stuff that like people find that out, and then why would they even watch our genre at all? They felt like it was all Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You don't want to devalue what you know if if you're if you're real behind it.
SPEAKER_02Might as well have good actors making fake scenes, you know, instead of like people who can't act.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I I I thought about that too from an acting level. I think that like in the in the earlier stages when reality TV was coming out, you know, it actors were maybe told, like, you know, don't don't go on reality TV, it could destroy your career. And then all of a sudden you start finding out people on reality TV are now getting movie deals. As long as they can really promote their brand. So then I feel like then actors were more op to like, oh, well, then if it can help my acting career, let me see if I could get into this and then maybe try to fool casting, which which I thought was interesting because you you did you know mentioned like if someone was coming on as couples, you tried to actually vet that they are a real couple and that that that their actual relationship is real.
SPEAKER_02Um we had tests to try to catch them to see if they were pretending. And honestly, if they if they passed my tests and I found out later they weren't, then I'm not I wasn't that mad because I'm like, well, you know, we tried, like, what could we do? You you you you sold it, so that's great. Like I tried my best. I was being authentic in what I was doing. So I think uh yeah, I think that was definitely people were always surprised to hear that we like, oh my friends were on that, they were a fake couple. Yeah, we did not know that. That's great.
SPEAKER_03You know, my neither did the viewer, apparently, right? So if they played it off the whole time, then water under the bridge, and and you guys gave some entertainment, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't your fault they were lying. It was not my fault.
SPEAKER_02In fact, my wife's cousin, Stacy, uh, was one of those people that I had had on change of heart. She went on with a friend, they were pretending they were together, and they both went on dates, and their dates got uh my wife's cousin got wild on her date, and I was there filming the date. She got real drunk. She ended up getting real frisky on camera in a way that was crazy. Uh, and it was crazy because like she actually like was three years older than me, but like went to Syracuse. We had a lot in common with her. I had a lot of people that I had nothing in common with, you know, from you know, like the Jersey Shore that were that like would go on the show and be a lot more tame. And then uh this person, I didn't judge her, I thought she was having a great time. It was pretty crazy, wild. Years later on my first date with my wife and talking about what I was doing, and I was like, Oh, I worked on this show Change of Heart. She's like, My cousin was on that, I think. My older cousin, I was like, is her name Stacy? Did she go to Surf? She's like, Yeah, how did you know that? I was like, Because of all the people I've ever had on that show, there's only one person I remember that probably could have been your cousin, and that was her. And I was like, funny story. And I told her, and she was like, I kind of knew that. And now Stacy's my cousin too. And every time I see her, she's like, Remember that time I got frisky in the back of the car driving home, and you're yep, I remember.
SPEAKER_03And you're and you're filming, you're having to film it. Uh dude. Like, yeah, I will never forget that.
SPEAKER_02Like, Stacy's not Stacy's done talking about this.
SPEAKER_03Did you air that footage?
SPEAKER_02Uh, most of it's like her falling on the beach and you know, them making out, and they took off their clothes and ran into the ocean at the Jersey Shore. Okay. Uh some stuff in the car, but then we put the camera away because I did not try to.
SPEAKER_03But you aired some stuff that maybe her parents wouldn't be so proud of.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I would
Following the action of the wild OG Reality TV (Change of Heart)
SPEAKER_03always be like, please give me a natural out.
SPEAKER_02My bosses were a little bit like, follow the action, and then we can figure out what we put later. And one time somebody went into a bathroom stall, and I follow them in, and I was like, they're gonna be like, Why'd you stop? So I like put the camera under the stall, and the guy put his hand back like this and pushed my camera out. And I was like, Okay, that's my now. You just imagine what happens and you imagine it's bad. Dude, that's a great natural outpoint.
SPEAKER_03That's great. That's a great segue.
SPEAKER_00I know your pause is just follow the action.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, follow the action. Oh that show like was so like reliant on somebody like having this great night and like cheating on their partner and talking crap about them that they would like you, it was a different time, but you'd come back and be like, Did you get a make out? Did you get a make out? And if you're like, no, you felt like you failed. And so it's like so weird. And I I did like so many dates and producing either cameraman or producer of dates, and I I came up with a couple methods that made my job easier and made me feel less sleazy about it. Uh, number one, it was in New York at the time. We'd get in the cab and they go, What are we doing tonight? Because they would never know what they're doing on a date. And I go, Well, we're gonna go to this, we're gonna go, you know, hit baseballs at the park, at the you know, batting cages. We're gonna go out to dinner at La Cirque, and then we're gonna go to this club, and you guys are gonna make out, and I'm gonna go home afterwards. And they'd be like, ha ha ha. And I'd like, just kidding. Where am I? And just like make a joke of it. And then a lot of times the guys will be like, Yeah, I don't know. I kind of want to make a move. I just I'd be like, just tell them that you think the producers want us to make out. That could be your line. Oh, and that would work. Like, I think they're wanting us to make out, and then they're all like, Man, I wish I had you in my real life.
SPEAKER_03I could be blaming like who doesn't want to blame it on someone like the best wingman ever. Yeah, dude. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Hey, I'm doing them a favor, not you. Those different times. You can't do anything like that now. You can't, you know, you I think if you made anybody do anything like that, you'd be in big trouble these days. I think the world has greatly changed. In, you know, you don't want everybody, you know, now we're super the opposite with everything, making sure nobody's ever in an uncomfortable situation. I worked even not too long ago. I did
Wild Shows and Safety First (Rock Of Love)
SPEAKER_02a show. I mean, no, okay, now it's like now it's probably like 10, 15 years ago, but I remember from like, you know, reality TV coming up, like Brett Michaels, you know, like how crazy sexy can it be? To the point where everybody started getting scared about getting sued, and you know, we had to do STD checks and all this kind of things. And sometimes it was like extensive. SCD checks. And I remember one show they didn't want to pay for these. Sometimes it was like we don't do all the checks, but we warn everybody and they sign something. Hey, you're an adult, sign this thing. Any thing that you do sexually is on you. You're taking assuming risk like you'd normally do in normal life. Get it? Good. I worked at another place where they didn't even want to, they didn't feel comfortable about doing that. So they were just like, they're not allowed to have sex. No sex allowed on this show, but it is a dating show. And we did have a night where they like went on an overnight and slept in a place in a room together. So it was like, hey, you two kids, I'm not in here with a camera, but you guys are staying in this place together by yourselves. Don't have any sex. Remember, you signed something that said you can't have sex. Goodbye. And I was like, how ridiculous is that? I'm telling adults not to do things. And it's crazy, but you it's the same thing these days because of all the craziness with alcohol, which is there's been a lot of bad things that have happened over the years with alcohol. And now on these shows, we have to count their consumption. We gotta, you know, I I definitely think we as have a job if you see something sketchy happening, something bad, something whereas someone's super drunk or in a compromised position, uh, you know, nobody sits around anymore and doesn't do anything, right? So if you're sitting there in a control room watching it, you should you sure as hell should go in there and stop it. And but we to be extra safe, we have to count drinks for adults that we're documenting, which now, like maybe that's where some of the reality breaks, where you're like, you guys, I we've been taking notes, you've already had two in the last two hours, you have to take a pause. And they're like, if I was home by myself, I would have had four, right? Like we're not four, like it came from a time where people used to think like reality TV, we're putting giving people all this alcohol, so they get crazy. Now we're taking it away, and and and you're telling adults, some who might be older than you, like, you can't have another drink tonight.
SPEAKER_03Like, so there's like the liability, the the nanny state has come in and kind of curbed some of that previous, you know, fun and and kind of free will that was on there, it sounds like. And I mean, what do you argue like the heyday of of producing at least has passed?
SPEAKER_02I think no, I think like it's just a different time and different focusing and different I think it's evolved too. I think we've seen a lot of crazy fights, sexual crazy stuff, and it's like not as interesting now that we've seen so much of it uh throughout the years and on these shows, the real world was fuck wild. And I think, you know, we just have to be better and more creative and and different. But I I think that there definitely rules have gotten a lot tighter as people are trying to, you know, the word about liability and getting sued or shows getting taken off the air. I have had, you know, there's been situations where people had, you know, there was that documentary on Netflix recently about America's top not America's next top model, and uh, you know, they introduced found these guys in Europe that hung out with the models and there was a lot of drinking, and somebody cheated on their boyfriend and basically was like super drunk and felt like she was taken advantage of, and nobody wants that these days. So I think people are very cautious of things like that, but it's like, you know, now we're super, super safe where it's like we're telling adults, like, you know, you can't do this because we're liable for you. Which yeah, I'm not saying that's wrong and we shouldn't be doing that because we kind of need to now, I guess. But and we have to be more creative around it. But it's like very surprising. It's it's it's not easy as an adult talking to another adult to be like, you know, you cannot do this. I mean, I'm not allowing you to do this. I'm not your boss, I'm just the guy making a TV show that you sign up for. These people are not employees legally, right? But they have signed contracts that say they'll abide by certain rules, but they're not employees.
SPEAKER_03You can make the argument though, as well, that that I mean, you see this stuff, like crazy stuff happening on social media all the time. And there's there's no like regulation on that, and nor do I think that there really should be regulation on it. It's like something happened and you post it, it's like, you know, it the the whole I'm not a big fan of censorship, and I'm glad we live in the United States because of that. Um you know, putting something in front of somebody or forcing them to do something, that's that's maybe that's going above above board or above uh the level that you should. But when it comes to like getting some content that like my friend getting drunk and driving his car into a pond, like like that's funny. That's like that's postworthy.
SPEAKER_00That's country.
SPEAKER_02That's country hoover on the social media. Yeah, yeah. But when you're like representing a big corporation like NBTU, yeah, it's way different.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they're like, yeah. They're clamping down on that stuff because they don't want I mean, where there's money, there there's the lawsuits, man. That's the problem. That's the that's the society we live in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I I remember, I mean, I had some experience back in the day. I was like on the first episode of Hell's Kitchen, and I remember like being in that specifically, and and the beers were flowing. They had Heineken. I just knew that for that. And it was just like Heineken after Heineken after Heineken, but they also had wine and champagne. They were just pushing that stuff back in the day. And this was like early 2000s, right? So or mid 2000s. Yeah, I actually remember that like my ex I was with, she really took it like off the rails because they would come over and they'd be like, okay, here's a situation, you're gonna get this ditch, it's like wrong, and you know, create rockets, like go ahead, let it flow, get crazy. And I feel like she's got some drinks in her. And then so I was just like, okay, cool, cool. And like, you know, I'm still I'm I'm really a thespian at heart, dude. I was like, okay, yeah, this is acting and stuff. But she's not. Like she surprised me because I came over and I was just like, I can't believe this is wrong. Like you ruined her birthday. I like her just like I turned around and I recognized her blonde fucking hair. Like she stuck her fingers in a fucking stock. It was just like I was like, no, no. I think you're gonna do it. Dude, I think they wanted more of like a set of like. I'm not meant to be a good idea. I don't want to broke up. No, but I remember but I wanted the last part of it was is for me because it's again at the time it was like this whole thing is reality TV good for actors to kind of be mingled and it could destroy your grammar, like, oh my God, this is gonna air, what's gonna happen? You know, it's uh it's gonna be kind of embarrassing because people are gonna see me and they're gonna say, like, this is real, you know, because I have to follow her. So then I had to stand up and be like, how dare you? And like, you know, because like, you know, I always say yes, I'm a true improv. It's gonna go. And that's it. But so then I'm having regrets. And then so I was actually happy because like the episode just had me say one line. I said I was not there being like, I'll have the Caesar salad. And instead, they had like a group of these cougars that took it way like like the my ex was like on a 10, they were like on a 20. They like went to fucking, they went over all the way to uh Gordon Ramsay, like in the kitchen, and we're like banging the uh you can like do whatever, and they were going more crazy, so they chose that, and then I never even got the the other one, they never got to be like, Oh, you never even saw your god, you know.
SPEAKER_02If you want your airtime, you gotta really uh step it up, Chris. Be memorable, I guess.
SPEAKER_00They're like, nah, he's boring.
SPEAKER_03Um, but uh I mean, so like going back to that that like that stuff and where we're at now in in the world of like what you can view anytime, anywhere, like how has social media in your world kind of changed the way that you even go about uh kind of viewing what what the content is that you're you're hoping
Social Media's impact on Unscripted Reality TV
SPEAKER_03to get? Like, do you guys care about short form stuff and short clips? Are those are just gonna come naturally so that you got some TikTok content? Or is there a little more orchestration behind it?
SPEAKER_02Those clips are like, you know, we're hoping that that's what drives people to come watch the series. So it is like the clippable moments and the network putting on stuff online or our cast, like sharing things, especially like with a House of Villains, where we have casts who have a lot of followers. Tom Sandoval posts something, and people who follow him are like, Oh, what's that? I want to go check out that show. So definitely think about that in terms of promotion. I mean, that's like the whole world right now, right? Like it's like nobody watches SNL, they watch, they see the clip, they watch the the sketch online, or Jimmy Fallon. Like, they don't watch the whole tonight show, they watch the part that they're supposed to see, the best part of the interview, that all of that. And maybe some people uh come to the show, but it also can be monetized through nbc.com, or you know, they they make money that way too. So that that definitely helps. Social media it's changing everything, and it's frankly is that your biggest way of advertising? This day, a lot of stuff, especially with Peacock, they use a lot of like uh yeah, word of mouth, grassroots type stuff. I'm old school, like season one, we had tons of bill billboards and we were on buses and bus stops, we were in Times Square. To me, that's like, yes, look, we've arrived. They're really putting everything in the show, but it doesn't translate as well as you'd think compared to the social media, the the word of mouth that spreads through social media.
SPEAKER_03Like one amazing 15-second clip can get you more attention for a few dollars than you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars in billboards kind of thing. Yeah, I mean that's permeated to everything.
SPEAKER_02You talk about like scripted, but I've heard a lot of stories like they're they when they when they cast scripted shows, they ask how many followers people have because they're like, I want to have, you know, ideally that this person brings in in in in new viewers. They already they can promote it, they can get people to watch it. My wife just wrote a book, and uh when she was shopping it around, they're like, How many social media followers do you have? Because it's harder to get a book off. And the more social media followers you have, the the better chance you are. So I mean, it you know, it's weird these days. Like, I think even as a producer, like, uh don't love to like produ, you know, like show a lot of what I do behind the scenes or like, yeah, look, I'm hanging out with Tom Sanoval. But like in today's world, like having a social media presence no matter who you are, uh, especially in entertainment, is never gonna be a bad thing to some degree. Um, and I think it's just becoming more and more part of the world where everybody sort of becomes a brand to some degree. You're always kind of branding yourself. Uh, I think that's just the world we live in now. And I think I'm a little too late to like become a full-on influencer. Uh, but there are people, you know, producers in my industry who came up like, you know, oh, that's the producer from The Bachelor, who was always with the Bachelor people, and all the bachelor people started following them. I like tweeted uh or tweeted or shared on Instagram a clip from my show uh of Tom Sandoval doing something really funny, the unscripted, like we we don't script the show, but we do little scripted fun bits that play on their personalities or something that's happening on the show uh that you know when you're watching
BTS with Tom Sandoval and going viral by accident
SPEAKER_02the show, it's like for g for ha. Like two people are in a unified who have like a really uh unexpected friendship, I'll be like, yo, I want to shoot a ridiculous montage with you guys like sharing breakfast and like coming out of the closet wearing the same clothes, and then they're totally participant. So there was one where Tom Sandoval has a crazy beauty routine in the morning. We filmed his beauty routine and I had him narrate it like uh like uh Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. And to the point where we showed the script, we cut back to him one point, he's holding the script in his hands, and he's like reading something he's like about exfoliating with some product, and he's like, no, no, no, that doesn't exfoliate. And it's so funny we kept it in him correcting us. Um I shared that clip and I tagged him because I was hoping that it would make it so it would make it him, you know, all he would have to do is share what I tagged him in instead of having to like download the asset and put it on social media himself. And he shared it, and I have like it has like 150,000 views, and it's like from my account and all these likes and comments. I'm like, whoa, this is the most closest to like is this what it feels like to go viral? Like, dude, you ever arrived, dude? I know, and I'm like, man, if I did this like from the beginning of my career and did it with everybody, like maybe I could uh you know be getting sponsored by now. And I don't know, is that what I'd want to be doing? I don't know. If I could have gotten ahead of all of this, because our industry is you know, a big thing is like we're competing with social media now. Young kids don't watch TV anymore. And all advertisers and you know, they're the networks who get advertisers on board, they're always have always thought years ago, it was like millennials like this, millennials like this. And I'm like, I'm I'm a very end of uh of Gen X. I was like, I'm tired of hearing millennials, and then all of a sudden they start talking about Gen Z. And now sometimes they even mention Gen Alpha. And so they're always worried about the next generation, even though they're not buying as much now. It's just, you know, how do we start appealing to the next generation so we get advertisers because that's what advertisers want? They're finding now that they're not even watching TV. It's all so all the advertising money, as you probably know, a lot of it has gone to social media. So we are competing with social media, and it's hard to compete, right? Like I always wonder if I was, you know, 22 years old right now, would I just take my ideas and just put them out myself? And would that work? I'm not only so much I can do now. I think at my age, I'm less interesting.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, it's almost it's almost like I mean, I uh it we none of us were in the generation where it was it was like uh already hardwired into our systems, like all these young people, it's just part of their lives. Us relearning some stuff like that, like we could learn the basics, but if you want to be good at it, uh you're gonna have to dedicate a lot of time to it. But I I mean that's that I think that let the younger generation kind of we all it's just funny, we're all looking at it like we looked at the 60-year-olds and the 80-year-olds, and they're looking at us like, oh, these dinosaurs are only in our 40s or whatever, right? So they're yeah. But still, the progress, the progression of like age. It's it's it happens with every generation, and we bring great things to the table still.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to I I I think you're a legendary creator, and because this is another thing that I saw is you're also you're what like what you're helping create is a connection through generations, because I thought it was interesting that you'll can have Gen Zers sharing memes and gifts
Connecting generations through reality tv and memes/Gifs
SPEAKER_01from from I Love New York, you know, to got the with the shades on in bed and it's just like this is the vibe, like we want to go out. They it could be kids that never saw the show. They just started when social media was booming, it was this funny picture found that people took it, right? And and then it just starts circulating, it becomes like a top, a top meme, everyone knows, you know, or you know, like this hard thinking, and that's spawns, and that was that comes from something, and I don't know, but I don't know if you ever thought something like that could just be another spawn off of a creation that you had part, you know, that you took part in and and making that like would have such an impact connecting generations, even if they've never even were there to see it. I think that's really good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, certainly not back then. Who even knew this was a thing? But now, yeah, you're like, you know, back then we'd be like something crazy would happen in the house, and we'd be like, I'd come home and tell my roommates, like when I was working on I Love New York, like, yo, tonight's gonna be on the soup. That was the version of going by the.
SPEAKER_03Tonight's gonna be on the soup. Oh, dude.
SPEAKER_02I forgot about that. Yeah. A lot of times I was right. Like, it would be like, ooh, it was be so fun to come home one night and know months later when it finally airs that like, and then oh, yeah, I was right. I knew that moment would make the soup. That was crazy. I just lived it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and now you got Joel host.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, now I have Joel. It's a full circle.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I tell him about that. Oh, we talk about that stuff all the time. He was on the soup, yeah, which I think he's like the perfect host for House of Villains because I just like community and uh animal control. Like, I I like his acting, but he he's got he's like perfect for that. But I I do have to ask him because I I wanted before I have you ever had a cast member totally
Wildest guest stories...
SPEAKER_01derail production though? Because I feel like you're always looking for this wildness, but was there ever someone that was it was just too much and it's just like totally exploded?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, I mean, there's small, not like complete, yes, it happens a lot um in terms of like in the moment, and we as producers have to come in and like you know fix it and make things better. I mean, so there's definitely moments where someone's making a stink or they thought they weren't treated well, and we gotta sit there and time out, talk to them, show them a tape, rewind, like you've seen like on some of the shows. They uh on on uh on on House of Villains season one, and Amarosa said she got hit by uh a uh tamarine, and we had to we played it and we rewound it. You see a producer in there talking to her saying, You gotta why don't you stay over here and you stay over there? Are we cool to proceed? Like things like that happen a lot. It doesn't totally derail production. Uh, you have moments like that. You have moments like I worked on uh Bad Girls dating show where you know, oh, someone's been this is back in the day, she's drinking too much Jack Daniels. We know she's gonna get into she's gonna elimination's gonna be a disaster because she's not gonna be able to be able to carry herself through it and having to go in there and being like uh all the people being like all the talent uh we have talent managers and people who walk in there like I've asked her to stop. I she won't give me the bottle, blah blah blah. And I'm like guys, come on.
SPEAKER_00The producer's like, we're gonna weekend at Bernie's this one. Yeah, like how to come out.
SPEAKER_02I saw them talking to this bad girl, like, uh uh hey, can you can you give me the bottle, please? You know, we're trying. And she wasn't, and I just walk in and I go, yo, she's sitting there with a bottle of jack drinking out of the bottle. I go, yo, Jim Morrison, give me the damn bottle. And she was like, Okay, and just handed it over right away.
SPEAKER_03And I was like, you know, you gotta treat him like like Gen Z, you know?
SPEAKER_02But I think also like um the most derailed a production ever had was after the production, where the winner of my show I Love Money season three went home and murdered his wife. Uh that was the bad I Love Money season three. The winner is a guy named Ryan Jenkins
The "I Love Money" tragedy...
SPEAKER_02who was on Megan Wants a Millionaire with Megan Hauserman from Rock of Love. Um, and I Love Money was all the best people from those shows. And we shot season three and four back to back in Mexico, and uh they didn't have a lot of guys, they only had the guys from I Love New York, so they were excited to get more guys from Daisy of Love and Megan Wants a Millionaire to keep fueling the pipeline. So we shot when we started shooting, that show hadn't even aired. So we had cast members on that nobody knew yet, but they hadn't, you know, having made the show, they were like, these guys are gonna be great on that show. So then they'll be all-stars for your show for Isle of Money. But at that point, like we didn't know anything about them. If you hadn't worked on that show, you wouldn't know anything about them. So all these guys show up, and um one of them was from Megan Wants a Millionaire, and I think he came in like third place on that show. He came into our show, he won almost so many challenges, like ran away with the show, did so well, went home, said goodbye to him in the morning, uh, and we were gearing up to shoot another season, and I got a thing like someone sent me from TMZ that uh uh he had murdered his wife and was on the lamb. And then another one that they had found him and he had taken his own life. And we were like, should we shoot the next season? I mean, apparently uh she had been cheating on him the whole time he was shooting our show. He came back, caught her, murdered her. There's been crime docs about it, but they the network pulled the season, it never aired, never hit the light of day. Um we still shot the next season and ended up uh it the shirt said I Love Money for they had to like in post paint out all the fours and they ended up airing it a year later, not promoting it 10. It still did well, but a lot of that changed the background procedures for how they do reality shows, and the psych tests got a little bit uh more intense. And you know, now intense psych background. Like now, if you go home and murder your wife when the show is over, we can say at least a psychologist evaluated you. They had no criminal record, no history of violence in the past. We can't control what they do when they leave. They probably still pull the show, right? Like that stuff happens all the time still. There was the whole bachelorette contract. Recently, you know, that that video surfaced. So all we can do is do our best job of trying to prevent things like that.
SPEAKER_03That's wild. Well, thanks for sharing that story. Yeah. Um, I did
Rapid Fire: the favs, the underrated, the hottest, and more....
SPEAKER_03want to do maybe maybe like two more things, but the rapid fire round is something we always do. Just just like off the cuff, what what you think after you hear each one of these? Well, I'm just gonna throw them out there because you're you're gonna answer them honestly. And I think that you're gonna be a bit self-indulgent. All right, best reality show of all time.
SPEAKER_02House of Villains, but uh I mean, it's my favorite show I've ever worked on, but uh Survivor, probably for real. And cultural revel uh, you know, relevance, the fact that it keeps going, it's a solid type format that everybody's tried to copy over and over again.
SPEAKER_03All right, uh, current most underrated show.
SPEAKER_02The current most underrated show unscripted? Yes, unscripted, yeah. Squid Games the Challenge. I think that show's incredible. All right. The scale of it is incredible. I just think they did such a great job. And it I like the the the uh the scripted show, but I think this does something even more spectacular that you know with with the real people and the real stories that you get to know that is even more interested and know you don't get killed if you get eliminated. They made the price so high at $4.3 million that when you get that close and you lose, it feels like you you could see the people feel like they just died a little bit because they knew they were this close to $4.3 million.
SPEAKER_03We're all sick fucks. All right. Uh, I think I know the answer to this one villain or hero? Me? Yeah, no, I mean, no, not you personally. No, no, no. What your what your preference. Yeah, okay. All right.
SPEAKER_02Much more interesting. Yeah. Look, conflict drives story, right? That's any story that you read, any movie has some sort of conflict. You need something to make a story happen. Otherwise, you don't have a story.
SPEAKER_01And if I may, you made a great point. I just want to say again about villains, and I thought about it. Was that you that on screen they may be called quote-unquote villains, but they're also people that speak with conviction. They're not hiding who they are. They tend to be the people that that this is who I am. I'm giving it to you, as opposed to someone that may be playing the hero, but like you know, behind the scenes are giving you your probably biggest headache.
SPEAKER_03Chris is over here trying to justify his personality. Yeah, you're describing uh yourself as a friend of the thing. I mean these people with conviction.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. A lot of times when I'm interviewing these people, they go, Yeah, my dumbass cast members didn't like me, but the producers love me. Yeah. You know? And what I've learned is you don't want to you want to make sure the producers like these villains and they're not really, really villains off camera because that will make your production a lot harder. So the ones that producers like are the are the villains. We like the fun villains, the funny villains, not the awful people villains. The cruella villains. Thank you, Dave. Arth Vader.
SPEAKER_03Right? All right, a show that you wish a show that you wish you created.
SPEAKER_02Well, I wouldn't say Survivor because that's so far back in the day. Um I thought Love is Blind is kind of, I mean, hey, it's done so well, and I thought that was such a nice evolution of things. I don't know if it's like tonally my uh favorite kind of show, but I'll say like right now that oh no, I have a better answer. Let me let me start again. Yeah. Too hot to handle. Have you seen Too Hot to Handle?
SPEAKER_01I I actually have. Wait, can you can you just get can you just bring me up to speed on Too Hot to Handle?
SPEAKER_02The Netflix dating show where they take like these really, really hot people who are like super sexually charged and horny, and on the first day, they find out they can win money if they don't kiss or fool around or uh play with themselves. And I think it's so genius and so hilariously crazy to watch these people like struggle with this. It is the first, like, I think the last everything there was like six seasons. I think by the end by sixth season, it was like, okay, you can only do this so many times, but pretty genius, and it's super, and they do take it very tongue-in-cheek.
SPEAKER_03I think I think I saw two episodes with Rachel, and then we like just fell off. But like, it is pretty wild. Like, you're yeah, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02I think it's a real experiment, even though it sounds super ridiculous, and it's like in a weird way, it's like all these shows like that are sexually like very like like obvious out there, like maybe the ones where people are restraining is a little bit more tantalizing to viewers. And I'm not watching it to be tantalized, but I also think it's just like kind of funny and sexy. It has a little bit of everything, and it's super maybe that's my answer to underrated as well. So let me say I'll make Squid Games the challenge because that's where the money's at, and Too Hot to Handle is the underrated. I like it.
SPEAKER_01And I was imagining what it might be like a producer on Too Hot to Handle. You know, you're like, please, no, don't do that right now. No, don't touch me. Don't touch well, I don't, it's kind of nice.
SPEAKER_02This is you can you lose money if you do. So I don't know if the producer is like, okay, and then they have ways to earn it back. So it's sort of like funny. If you come in and you lose all the money out of the pot and everyone's mad at you early on, you can redeem yourself and then win the whole show. It's kind of ridiculous, but you kind of have to sign up for that ride. But I'm always like, yeah, just go on, hook up, lose all the money, everyone will be mad at you, and then have a redemption arc and you win the whole prize and get to hook up with all the girls and stuff. That's wild. There's actually a couple from that show that is married and has like a baby and maybe another one on the way. So hey, the experiment worked for uh at least one.
SPEAKER_03Somebody, man. They they hey they knew the worst sides of themselves, or maybe, or the wildest sides of themselves, and they fell in love with it. Yeah, yeah. Good for them.
SPEAKER_02Their like theme is that uh, you know, if you take that out of the equation, you can maybe find real genuine connections, and yeah, it worked for somebody.
SPEAKER_03Yep, absolutely. Actually, it's a I think that's a good way to describe it. Uh, what was the most chaotic cast you ever worked with, if you can say?
SPEAKER_02The cast of the well, no, okay, Rock of Love. The Rock of Love girls. They were uh very wild, very uh, you know, that's what again, they drank a lot, they partied hard, they were like rock star girls, most of them were strippers, and also uh they were there was one guy for like 20 very uh horny girls that would just be like drunk and like hitting on the cameraman and like grabbing guy the camera guys and producers, like hey you! And it was like a wild time. I mean, that show was such a crazy time, and people love it, and it's because that cast is so wild and over the top.
SPEAKER_03All right, okay, well, man, you had some great answers for uh for the rapid fire round, and uh, and thank you for those. Really, like, really well thought out. Um all right, so this is what this is one I don't even know if we should ask, but pitching a Napa Valley reality TV show, winemaker wars, bringing winemakers from all these different ideologies together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like you have like a non-interventionist winemaker, then you have like a and then you have a you know, actually just your normal winemaker, and you have like one guy that's just like, no, just let the grapes fall. And then the other winemaker's like, nah, dude, it's the bricks are like stop being a little bitch in the vineyard.
SPEAKER_03Hey, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Burying cow horns doesn't do anything for quality, and you weren't up this morning for great meditation, and that's what's gonna make them grow right. And he's just like, What? So, anyways, I'm pitching. I feel like I dude, I got all sweaty, my heart was beating. Like, I felt like I was pitching pretty over Day Lows.
SPEAKER_02Imagine, yeah, you're kind of that's what I do. I feel like I'm constantly putting myself out there and you're like excited, and someone's like, you know, that's the crap all over your ideas.
SPEAKER_03That's my job all day. Dave, you don't need to crap all over ideas in the Sarah.
SPEAKER_01I still hear that. But but there's also my the other thing is right here is a star. He's always ready. No, dude, don't pitch me. No, you wanted me to, remember? You were telling me before we came on. Oh, sorry, you're gonna act like you don't. Sorry. It's playing hard to give. Sorry, he's playing hard to give. But, anyways, first wrote. He's very charming. He's a TikTok influencer, yeah. Rebel of the wine industry, you know.
SPEAKER_02And uh I gotta know the stories and the family.
SPEAKER_01Generation winemaker. I mean, he's he's rocking it, he's got all of it. You are embarrassed. Do you still want to bet on me? I'm plus sold. A plus 1200 in the bet now. Actually, I just went up.
SPEAKER_02We'll have to do some interviews, you know, with your family and make sure everyone's equally. I mean, that's the problem. Like everybody around you has to be, it's so hard to get a docus here. But I think they're in a world, if in the world, it would be all careful, it would be like the backdrop of the story. Like, Napa Valley is an interesting place, right? There's so many real housewives now of Salt Lake City, but like I think they've become very interested because they're like the Mormon thing, and then there's the real houses of Rhode Island just came out, and people really like it, and they're really like they have those accents and they're real like Jersey-ish. So I think, and they all have crazy stories.
SPEAKER_03So hey, look, I'll I'll bring it to I'll bring it to step one of asking my entire family about it, as long as I get access to the psychological evaluations.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_02You know what? I don't even think the cast members themselves know. We're just like, sorry, we went another direction. I don't know. We'll see. That's a whole legal team and uh and uh that that is done separately and they have their thing, and someone doesn't make a show because of psych evaluations. We're like, why? What happened? They're like, they can't tell you, like that's still private, it's just all you know. You're like, what? They didn't that person didn't pass a psych evaluation? What they seem so normal, and you never get an explanation because it's you're not allowed to. So you just you just find out you lost your cast member. Yeah, and it's literally like they know they're getting a psycho evaluation for a reality show. So it's like, even if you are crazy, you could just pretend to be not, but they must just be like, I don't know what they're saying. I've never been in one, I don't know what they're like. They're one-on-one from uh with a psychologist, uh, and yeah.
SPEAKER_01I got a question for Joe. Which family member do you think wouldn't pass wouldn't pass the psyche vowel?
SPEAKER_03Wouldn't pass the psyche vow. Oh man, I'm gonna I'm gonna say either my brother or my sister Erin. Okay, I'm gonna go Aaron. Yeah, because she's trying to be a psychologist. So she's already hiding shit. And I hope she hears this because I gotta finish business with her. I was just with her in Knoxville.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, see, okay, you know what? Never mind. I shouldn't have asked.
SPEAKER_03All right. Well, hey sorry, Dave. Sorry to bring you in on the family. Dave, I want Dave, I want to say thank you again for taking the time to talk to us, share your story. Thanks for having me. Uh man, really entertaining. I think people are gonna love this. Um and I I learned tons of stuff. I mean, you know, great, great information, but just great stories. So uh so thank you again. And uh looking forward to meeting up in sometime in the future.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you so much, and thank you for keeping us just entertained, like for years and years. And I look forward to all the rest.
SPEAKER_02And thank you for keeping me drunk. That's how I get through it. Because I'm not on a show, I can drink as much as I want.
SPEAKER_03All right, man.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Dave. All right, thank you.