Go With Your Palate
Joe Wagner, 5th Generation Winemaker, presents the podcast "Go With Your Palate." A podcast about wine, entrepreneurship, and whatever the F else. So buckle up - this isn't your normal wine podcast.
Go With Your Palate
E95 Dave Kuba | Joe Wagner
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
The guy behind House of Villains, Flavor of Love, Fast Foodies, and reality TV chaos just joined the podcast.
Dave Kuba pulls back the curtain on how hit reality shows are really made—and yes, we even pitched him our own Napa Valley reality show.
🎙️ Go With Your Palate: Dave Kuba | Reality TV Chaos, Villains & Behind-the-Scenes Gold
This week, we sit down with the man quietly responsible for some of the wildest moments in reality TV history - Dave Kuba, Executive Producer and EVP of Development & Current Programming at Irwin Entertainment. If you’ve ever watched a reality show and thought, “How is this even happening right now?”… there’s a good chance Dave had something to do with it.
From the early chaos of Change of Heart, Flavor of Love, and I Love New York to Fast Foodies, The Apprentice, and the beautifully unhinged House of Villains, Dave walks us through his incredible journey from reality TV’s early days to helping shape what millions binge-watch today. We dive into what makes a hit show actually work, the madness of casting unforgettable personalities, and what it’s like sitting on both sides of the pitch table - selling ideas and hearing them.
And because this is Go With Your Palate, we couldn’t resist pitching Dave our own Napa Valley reality show concepts. Let’s just say Fat Mario may still need to work out a few creative kinks… and possibly pass a psych eval before cameras roll 👀.
We also get into the psychology behind why people love villains, how reality TV has evolved in the TikTok era, and the surprising amount of strategy hidden behind the “controlled chaos” viewers see on screen.
It’s insightful, hilarious, and packed with behind-the-scenes stories from one of the sharpest minds in unscripted television.
Whether you’re a reality TV junkie, a creator with a wild idea, or just curious how the sausage gets made in Hollywood - this episode delivers.
Grab a glass and prepare for some beautifully produced chaos. 🍷📺🔥
All right, today we got a special guest on Wet Your Palette. We've got Dave Kuba. He works in all things uh really reality TV. I was trying to remember the word that he described it as unscripted. That's it. Unscripted.
SPEAKER_04Unscripted.
SPEAKER_03And it's a reality. We've come back around. Okay, okay. I I know it's what I'm saying. You got to change it once in a while, keep it fresh. I get it. Uh, but no, it we man, the stories we went through today. Thank you for opening up about it. Uh, talking about a number of things from your current shows, previous shows, wild times. Uh, the Joe Wagner reality show coming soon.
SPEAKER_04We're making a deal. Or we're in the creation of it. We're just we're just snitballing right now.
SPEAKER_02But I like seeing Chris's eyes light up when I'm talking about too hot to handle. He's definitely going home to watch that tonight.
SPEAKER_04No, Dave. Yo, you're right.
SPEAKER_03Well, as well. Well, Dave, thank you for joining us. Uh check out his uh current show, House of Villains, right now, please. And uh, and and just go back into time and enjoy the stuff that he has been providing as far as great entertainment for, at this point, generations, going on three at least.
SPEAKER_02We didn't even get to talk about my experience on The Apprentice with our current president, but that's a story for another time. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04I mean, like I'm we're just getting to know each other. I wasn't gonna jump in like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, no, no. You you've jumped, you're a level jumper. You've already uh a level jumper material.
SPEAKER_03Level jumper, which I actually I want to know what at some point I'm gonna ask the question what does a level jumper mean in reality TV?
SPEAKER_04I think there's some good examples.
SPEAKER_02I'm sure that I think we I don't know, yeah. I think everyone's a level jumper in reality TV. That makes you a better reality TV contestant.
Level Jumpers: I Love New York (Tiffany) and other reality TV stars
SPEAKER_04I mean, would uh like would Tiffany be one, like New York?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, for sure. She well, she's she's not a she's the different person. She's like on her own wavelength, and she's like nobody I've ever met before. I've known her for years, and I still can't really there's like questions people ask me, and I'm like, I'm really not sure what the answer to that is. Uh, and that's what makes her so great.
SPEAKER_04It's still like there's still an enigma there.
SPEAKER_02Like, well, people always ask me, like, if she realizes, like, if she thinks of stuff she says that's so outrageous beforehand, or does she come up with it on the fly? And I'm like, she never reveals her secrets. It's just sort of like her mystique of who she is. And then we don't ask because you don't have to when they just deliver all the time, but she's just sort of like I've I've like things that come out of her mouth that people love her for, like, have weird explanations that sometimes I don't figure out until later. Like, she made Jax from Vanderpump Rules cry because she called him a demon and she saw it, but then later she was just I found out that she just thought he looked like the guy from Lucifer, like the actor that played Lucifer. Yeah. So in her mind, he was a demon, yet that made him cry, being called a demon. Like she's like, I see your soul and it's dark. You're a demon.
SPEAKER_04And she just made her both rules, dude.
SPEAKER_03Like, that's that's I mean, that's pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_04Like, that just broke him.
SPEAKER_03Honestly, I wish. That's what broke him after all that.
SPEAKER_04After all that, dude, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_03I wish commentary just rolled off of my tongue like that. Like, that's that's uh, that's that's like a that's a special talent.
SPEAKER_02That is her special talent. She can just be thrown into a situation and turn on. But like when she's living in a house with other people, she spends like so much time in her room. Like she literally hangs out with the rest of our Casper House villains less than anybody. She'll be in her room, like recharging, as we call it, and just doing her own thing. And then she'll come downstairs and interact with five people and know that like we've got our work for the day. And it's not like we tell her to do that, she just naturally does that. Like, we don't have to be like, go downstairs and hang out with everyone because we know that when she does go downstairs, she makes a count. I don't know why.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you're right then. You're right. She's on a different level, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Well, so that's a that's a real talent for yeah. Yeah, she's just meant to do this. There's certain people you meet that you're just like, you're just such an interesting character, and you're just meant to be on reality TV, and that's why people like them and they're not trying to be someone else, they're just themselves. Like they're just so original.
SPEAKER_04I see, like, you know, like the past like books that despians would like follow, like an actor prepares, and I feel like they're gonna be coming out with this whole kind of movement of like how to prepare to be in the moment as a reality star or like a different kind of thing. Like we were just talking about this uh when it came on, like the actor versus entertainer. Is there any training for it?
SPEAKER_02I don't think so.
SPEAKER_03I think you just you either have it or you don't. We got a lot of questions about this, right? A quick book. We could we can do the introductions here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay, yes.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, welcome to go with your palette, all of our viewers and listeners out there. Uh, you got me and uh Fat Mario over
Welcome the Real Real Reality TV Pioneer, Dave Kuba
SPEAKER_03here, and of course uh Joe Wagner, and uh we talk about wine. I mean, really entrepreneurship, yeah, and whatever the fuck else. It's a lot of whatever the thing is. There's yeah, there's a lot of that. And uh no shortage of that is going to be today because we have Dave Kuba, the executive vice president of development and current programming at Irwin Entertainment. And I'm gonna simplify that by uh saying that you have been a reality TV pioneer uh and producer. Um, and and you have a number of shows. I'm gonna just go through a list. I'll let you go through of them, a number of them, but currently hitting up House of Villains, right? But also have worked on Baller Wives, Fast Foodies, The Apprentice, Flavor of Love.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, I love New York.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I the the list goes on. I mean, there's you you've done so much creatively, I mean, all your experience, stuff like that. And it's uh I even know, like I I'm not I don't even jump on your story, but I was just like, I love where your story starts with change of heart. I remember that story too, but I'll let you tell it.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I think there's a lot of really interesting stuff to talk about. Uh like I'm I'm very curious. I hope you can divulge uh some information. Maybe maybe some of your non-disclosure agreements have lapsed, and you know, you're able to my pen time.
SPEAKER_04We yeah, we we want the we want the juice if the statue of limitations collapse.
SPEAKER_03Not that well, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you for having me. I was gonna say I always like to hear the origin story first. Like, I mean, you know, first just how you got into this, and then we'll open it up a little bit because uh I think people always are are curious, you know, the origin story is so important about uh, well, everybody, but when you have such a unique role in the world, like how does somebody even fall into some something like the world that you currently live and work and breathe in?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I guess sort of by accident. Uh I would, you know, when I was younger, I would always take out my video camera and make different videos of different things. And so I went to uh Syracuse, to TV, radio, and film school. And, you know, at the time, uh reality wasn't really even a thing. There was the real world, which really wasn't called reality back in the day because it was like on an island as its own thing. There was like cops, and then there were like talk shows and like late-night dating shows, like uh, what was the one, studs, like things like that. But um, nothing like that when I went to college. I think you know I wanted to be the next Steven Spielberg, uh, like a lot of people. But uh yeah, I went to school. I think there was like a school television network, and I always like sort of fell into the role of like VJ or doing like the wraparound programming, like MTV. I was kind of, I didn't get cable until I was older. My dad was very cheap, and uh, so I had a little bit of an obsession with MTV because I didn't get it till I was older, and so I liked the way that it was like at the forefront of pop culture. Um, but then yeah, long story short, I was supposed to move out to Los Angeles. Uh my dad was like, Well, you don't have a job. Like most people moving out to LS uh Los Angeles, so you're on your own. Uh and I was like, fine, I can get by on ramen. And I went to go visit a friend in New York to say goodbye uh before I left because I grew up outside the city. I drove into the city and my car got towed, and I had to get it out of an impound lot. And uh $350 later, I was like, maybe I'm not ready to go to LA. I'm close enough to New York where TV's made, and I applied to everything I possibly could apply to. And I uh saw a posting for one of those uh late night dating shows I uh that I was talking about, like the iteration of Blind Date and and Studs, and the next one, one of them was Change of Heart, which was uh, I don't know if you remember that show,
"Change of Heart"- where it all began!
SPEAKER_02uh, but it was basically like a talk show uh with a little bit of like what later became reality TV baked into it. Um and there was a, you know, so they were looking for casting people, and uh I applied, I got the job, and I think they thought I was some like really big party person. Uh and really the job was to like walk around the streets of New York and go to like clubs and bars at night and ask people if they wanted to be on this dating show. And yeah, and I and I immediately it didn't take long before I realized I wasn't good at that. Like, if I was really good at uh just randomly going up to muscle, muscly dudes and like super hot modely women, then I would use it for my own purposes. Uh but you know, it was even worse when you were like you had to go approach someone in a bar and be like, um, excuse me, and then like you're immediately judged, and you're like, no, I'm gonna put you on a TV show um where you might break up with your boyfriend.
SPEAKER_04So that was the it was so edgy for its time.
SPEAKER_03That's a pitch. Well, and you know, that so that was like the beginnings of reality TV where like people weren't even thinking, oh, this is my shot at fame. Yeah, right? Like, so you're you're literally you're cold calling people about something they are not interested in because they know nothing about it.
SPEAKER_02It it was like a I think at the time it was like a fun thing to do because it was only like you know, a one-time, one and done. You're not gonna become famous from this, but you could be like, cool, I was on TV once, like call your cousin, check it out. But but the show is basically for anybody who doesn't know, is like a couple would come on and like the first segment is on a talk show set, basically. Uh the first segment they talk about how they met, what they like about each other, and then what they don't like about each other. And then on the second segment, you know, we'd be like, well, Tommy is with Jessica, and he doesn't like that she's short, stupid, yeah, and hates wine.
SPEAKER_01So we set him up with a girl who's tall, smart, and is a huge wine drinker. Come on out, Nancy.
SPEAKER_02So messed up.
SPEAKER_04Dude, before Temple, like before all this stuff.
SPEAKER_02It was before Temptation Hall, it was like one date. And and basically they'd be like, talk about their date, and we would show like little clips from the date, like just because we didn't have at one point I was shooting dates. It was just like a small PD-150 camera and a couple of mics. It wasn't good enough to like, I wouldn't even call it broadcast broadcast quality, but you know, we took we put effects on the clips and it was like rolled into a talk show, so it worked. Um, and then obviously we switched it. Then we would show, you know, the other person's date, and then the very last segment, they had cards, very lo-fi, uh, that either said change of heart or uh stay together, and they'd flip it over one at a time, and it would be whether they want to stay together or have a change of heart and break up. And uh so that was my first job. And I uh I wasn't great at casting, but I like pitched myself to my boss, like I could I could do like so many different things, I can shoot dates, I can dub tapes, I can edit because I did that in college, and so I sort of ended up becoming like the guy who did a little bit of everything on the show until I eventually in my second year started producing episodes of the show. But I think it was like, even though reality wasn't like a totally a thing, um, Survivor hadn't was just coming out, had just come out the year before, so it was just taking off, and right around the same time, Bachelor of Season 1 was coming out, so it wasn't really even defined. Uh, I don't even know if anybody called it reality, but I think my first taste in it was I think one of my first days I was on the set behind the set, and there was uh a girl who's like boyfriend or who like had gone out and like had a good time with this guy, and you're watching it going, she's clearly gonna break up with him. And I walked behind the set and I saw a producer being like, No, you don't wanna break up with him.
SPEAKER_01Come on, he went out and had such a good time. He looked, you know, he looked so sad. Like, you should look like the hero here. Don't you wanna?
SPEAKER_02And I was like, but oh, and then somebody quickly said to me, if everybody just broke up and both people said, uh, change a heart, as soon as the first person says change of heart, it doesn't matter what the second person says. They're broken up, it doesn't matter. So our ideal situation is somebody says stay together, and the other person's like, bam, change of heart. You're dead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So they're like, Yeah, they're like 60% of the time we want that, 30% of the time we can have the ending where they decide to stay together, and like less than 10% can they both break up with each other or the show stakes. And one thing I so that was like my first lesson in producing, but I think over time what I've come to realize is like if you have to control the narrative that much, your show concept or your show itself isn't that great. So I think that as time went on, it's like if you have a really good concept and really good cast, you don't have to be telling people what to do, despite you know, but despite what a lot of people think, like that's not a great show to me.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, so you you you know happen to start off in kind of the casting role, and I I'm really curious about this part. Um because there's like there's the balance of actors versus performers, or maybe maybe and I'm maybe not using the right terms, uh entertainers, right? Um, but are you looking
Inside Unscripted casting...producers tend to like the villains (insight found here)
SPEAKER_03for uh people that that have kind of an acting ability, or is it purely just on screen, quick momentum, being able to kind of be the excitement in front of the camera at the moment that they want to? Or what what do you what do you look for? I mean, what I just have no clue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think I look for people who are like unique personalities, like I've never met anybody like this person before is is is the best because we've especially now we've seen the same person being trying to be the villain so many times over and over again. I also think so that's one. I think two is somebody who's like uh authentic and uh unapolog uh unapologetically themselves and super authentic. So, like, what you know, a lot of times people are like, oh, that person was the villain on that show. And I make a show called House of Villains, so I like have a personal love for a lot of these villains. But I think they a lot of them get labeled the villains because they go on a show with a bunch of Yahoos and they basically say it like it is, they call it like it is, they speak their mind. When you're on a show like this, you know, and you're being interviewed, what we want to know is like not just what we're seeing, what you think about it, what you're actually thinking and not saying, what your opinion is. So people who just kind of say exactly what they're thinking and what is going on every moment are the most interesting people, and they're being their authentic selves. And a lot of times the quote unquote villains are the people who do that. Like everybody else was thinking it, they just didn't care. They're like, you know what? I'm real, I'll tell you what I was thinking. A lot of times there are people who are so worried about how they're gonna come off on TV that they are like trying to look good and then they're a pain in the ass off camera, and they're actual the real villains in real life. They just are like, you know, psycho, you know, like a psycho. Yeah, like great.
SPEAKER_04I've got like a like wolf and sheep's clothing kind of thing, you know, right?
SPEAKER_02I've got an ex-wife. I know what he's talking about. Yeah. And I also think like, you know, some of these people have acting talents, and and uh I think some of them are just like, why do you like who would watch, you know, why do you want to watch a show with just like people who can sort of act? It's like you'd rather have people being themselves and reacting the way they would normally react, and but they just happen to be very over-the-top, very honest, very funny people. So I would say they're personalities, right? They're like first and foremost personalities. Almost like a talk show host is a personality. They're not playing a character, they're themselves trying to be funny, charming, and interesting. And they also sort of a lot of great talk show hosts, as you know, have like a little bit of uh cojones. Like they ask the tough questions, they yeah, they say the things that everyone's thinking, and they're not afraid to hold back. And that that also goes true for being a reality producer doing interviews. Like, if you feel shy about asking the question everybody wants to know the answer to, then that's not the job for you. You gotta be like, all right, I'm gonna ask this question, even though it makes me feel weird to ask it. Everyone's thinking it, and I'm just gonna go for it.
SPEAKER_03And you're surrounded by a bunch of people too, that like just putting somebody in a corner. Always that's always fun. Um, and so so is it like through a casting call?
SPEAKER_02When you're when you're looking for new talent, or is it a casting call or what
The evolution of unscripted and the impact of social media
SPEAKER_02when I first started and did casting, it was like the internet wasn't that big and what wasn't popular. There was like Craigslist, and for whatever reason, they wouldn't let us use it back then for they were like worried and scared about us. So we literally had to walk the streets and go up to people and then bring them in, like sign them up for a time to come in, and then they would get interviewed. Uh, if they were couples, there was like a longer interview process where we would want to know their whole story and try to suss out if they're actual real couple or pretending to be. And then for the single people, they basically had to look hot and be able to tell a funny date story, and we're like, you're you're on, right? So that was all that. Now it's a little bit there's so many different ways. There's all these people who are there's casting companies in unscripted that um were people that a lot of them worked uh in used to be like production companies had their own casting departments, and then those people that were really good at it started their own company. So a company like mine will get a project and we'll talk to a bunch of companies, they'll give us a bid, we'll decide who we think is the best one for this, and then they go out and find the people. And mostly these days, a lot of it's through Instagram and just uh, you know, some some posts that people respond to or targeted casting. If we really want something specific, they'll like look into those groups or those organizations and find those people. And some of it would be like if it if it calls for it like on the streets. I I remember talking to somebody who's like casting for um biggest loser in the early seasons, and they would have to go to malls and be like, hey, you're really big when I lose weight. Like I mean, that would be you gotta have some balls to do that, man.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, yeah, we told my biggest. That might be better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you can get your ass beat. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um But you you mentioned you mentioned that there's now uh casting companies for specifically for unscripted uh television. And so are there then I would also assume that there are there is talent that specifically looks for unscripted jobs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I think the well I think the best people are like people who have other jobs as a way in. Like they were already doing something else. Uh and they're like, you know, that's what made them interesting. They're real people. And then eventually, like when you've been on one show, you quit your job and you get on Instagram and try to make more money and then try to get on more shows. So then they do become like the Tom Sandoval's of the world, you know, Cake Chastings, like these people become professional reality stars to some degree while also being today influencers. I think a lot of people uh that end up on unscripted TV already have influencer followings these days, and so it's a way to just appeal to another a new audience that might not have followed you before and gain traction, or vice versa, you were like a nurse cast on Survivor, and you know, you got some followers from that, and then you're like, Well, I can quit my job and keep putting up content and getting more and more followers and start getting paid to just be an influencer. So there's you know, both of that. And and I think a lot of these shows we're talking about are like formatted shows, like where uh you go out and cast, and then there's shows that it's like it begins with the cast, like, and that's people like who work or less casting companies, and like people who work for me, um who like go find. People to base shows around from scratch. Like, oh my God, I found these people that own this dance studio. Uh, and there was this whole family, and they had a dance studio, and then there was a fight between the son and the and the mom, and he started his own dance studio, and then the daughter started hers, and now they're all rivals, and they're in the middle of Alabama, and they're crazy. They should have their own show. That's kind of like a different kind of casting that is like, you know, can we build a whole show around you? Is is way different, and it's harder these days. There was a time where there was a lot more of that, and it's they sort of pulled back on that, and now it's kind of coming back again.
SPEAKER_03So I mean, I'm gonna tell you, Dave, I've got a bit of a hankering to become a reality TV star, and you know, with my massive success in being an influencer, my part-time job as a winemaker.
SPEAKER_04He's just saying this. He was he was actually he was actually approached about five years ago. Um and uh I think I could say this because we have no statute of limitations or any agreements that were made, but it was like Pink Tone Productions uh approached him. I think, you know, Dr. Pimple Popper and a Ghost Right and what and uh you know, and I and it kind of got us to this concept that we've been also talking about too, where
Would you watch a Napa Valley reality show about wine country...and Joe Wagner? (asking for a friend)
SPEAKER_04I think or or this idea that Napa Valley it feels like they've tried. And I know that in the entertainment business there's been pitches about Napa Valley reality shows, but like has not yet been successful, and I feel like he was approached for that reason where they thought, you know, someone like someone would be interested.
SPEAKER_03My life is just boring.
SPEAKER_04Life, you know, which is crazy. He's got like six kids, five dogs.
SPEAKER_03But wine country, wine country itself is boring, man.
SPEAKER_04What I mean. Ah man, it's it's also a soap opera itself, though. I mean, I know there would be a lot of good.
SPEAKER_03I think there's so there's this book, I think the guy's name was James Conway, and he just tried to like j dig up all the dirt on like the families and and whatever else history, but also families up to current in wine country, and then he just like made them bombastic stories. And and so I think that that caught people's eyes, or like, oh, there's some shit going down in wine country. And I I've read it, you're like, oh, this is like I mean, just trying to like throw all the dirt, and yeah, there's like family stuff here and there, and whatever. It's it's pretty funny. I mean, there's probably more great stories about the antics of tourists in in wine country than there are about the actual daily going-ons of you know, it's but anyways, I just thought it was I thought it was funny, but I yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't I don't think I'm a good person for it.
SPEAKER_02It's funny that you say that. There's always been like certain weird things, like every there's so many companies that do this now when cable blew up, so many people all day long are trying to figure out what shows they can pitch, what's the next thing, and they have teams calling everywhere. You'll you'll be like, I have this random thought, and I called someone, they're like, Oh yeah, we got called last week, and you're like, but you're what you do is so random. You know, somebody must have watched the same thing and it got in their head. So, for whatever reasons, over the years, there's
The Hard Reality: Unscripted shows that have proven to be hard to make...
SPEAKER_02been like areas that have always been tough horses, fire, and wineslash liquids. Uh, don't know why. In the last few years, there's actually been cocktail contests. Uh interesting that kind of a couple Netflix ones made it through. I don't think they had a lot of success, but I don't also think that there's like a they're visual enough, really. Uh, but for whatever reason, like we don't know why those things have always just been areas that people are like, oh, that doesn't work. Um, but I have gotten you know pitches in all of those worlds, including wine, over the years, and tried to figure it out. And that's not to say there isn't a story there somewhere, somewhere that would be good. Like, it's just like, what's the way in that feels different? Like a real housewives of Napa Valley, like if there was the right cast members who were wealthy, affluent, and married, you know, had their own vineyards or drama called them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like that is true.
SPEAKER_04Is my mom available?
SPEAKER_03I mean, what is your mom up to, man?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, what are our moms up to?
SPEAKER_03All right, we're gonna pitch. What are your wives doing? We're gonna pitch you. You uh you weren't we're gonna pitch you. Yeah, you find me a cast, I'm in.
SPEAKER_02Great cat.
SPEAKER_03Um, how about how about just our office? Dude, yeah. Now you got them started again, but I no, but I so I I do have to ask though, because it just thinking about uh uh the the three things, I guess three things you said, right? So fire horses and beverages of ever any sort of liquids. Um so is there is there something in any of the shows that has been like a major deterrent for adopting uh or a hardship, I should say, after adopting because it took the cast so much work to actually do it while a camera was on them? Or or is there you do you know what I'm asking? You mean like the wine process is slow? Is that what you're talking about? Well, wine process is slow when it's so physically involved, and the last thing that like me as a winemaker would want is like a cast and crew following me around because I wouldn't be able to get my work done. Sure. You know, like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's definitely like things that happen quickly are are usually more interesting for like a process-driven show. Like you could like a winemaking show feels more like a documentary because it's like yeah, you know, the process feels more like slow and soothing and interesting and learning about grapes and all that kind of stuff. But then that sounds boring.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, he doesn't know bully though. So come on, you gotta bring the bully very legend.
SPEAKER_04Oh white maker.
unknownSorry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so things that are like they're slow. I mean, yeah, it is more documentary style. And and then and then by by far comparison, you got fire, which is extremely fast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think the problem with the fire that I guess maybe it's always just been unpredictable, and it's like you can't sit around and wait for you know, make it like with production schedules, like you would like, oh, we're gonna follow this fire crew for the next three weeks, and that's our production window, and no big fires happen, and now we have no show. Like, yeah, yeah. So I I think that was like the way it's spread. These are just things that even when I was coming up that people have told me, and I've yet to see them like become big shows. Like, horses are interesting, but I don't know. There's been a lot of like equine therapy shows or things in the in that world. Um there's just a lot of things in this business you start to people are always like, why hasn't there been a show about this? I have this great idea. And I'm like, I've heard that 7,523 times. Uh or my wife will be like, yeah, but what about what about the no? And she's like, Yeah, but I think I was like, it's just no. Like, I just know it's a great idea, but I'm just know it's been out there, and that's why you're a producer.
SPEAKER_04You're like, nope, yeah, you cut them off of the past, no, but then you have something like you create uh creating like a house of villains. I feel like when that came up, and and I'm like, and I'm hearing about you know, people saying, Wow, like why did nobody think of this before? It was like that something that like was just once it was out there and people were watching it and it was like so impactful, it's just having that knack for it. I was just like wondering, like when you're doing it, because it looks like when I look at it, I'm like, this seems like Avengers of Chaos, really. Like you needed all these perfect parts. Was it like that? Or did you already kind of have your set group?
SPEAKER_02Or yeah, I mean, I think if I'm being honest, uh people had thought of it before. I had thought about it years ago at a show called I Didn't Come Here to Make Friends, that I was kind
"House of Villains" - the Avengers of unscripted Chaos....
SPEAKER_02of that, but it was more of like taking villains and putting them on a uh like a Namaste type retreat, but then giving them every you know way of like losing their cool and seeing if they could contain themselves. Um, but I think I I pitched it like when I started this job, and it was like not the right time in the industry. I don't know who's buying that. The truth of the matter is like we had been approached, we were approached uh by NBCU at one time, and for for E, they wanted to like start doing more celebrity house shows again, like they had like years ago. Like they kind of were out of, they weren't like as popular for a few years. And so they kind of like came to us with a couple thoughts and they just had a title, House of Villains. And I was like, really? You wanna okay, like sometimes it takes the internal network being like, you know, we want to do this idea, and you're like, yeah, I've thought of that before, but you know, now they're invested, they're giving me money, they want to do it. Now I have to come and pitch the best version of that show. Um, and we started with just a title and it went through many iterations. But I think for me, uh, you know, one of the things that was important to me, and one of the reasons why I thought it might like that would help it make it work when it seems so obvious, is the the tone. I think um, you know, a bunch of people that are just like awful people in a house, like yelling and fighting, like we already had that called out uh Real Housewife, uh, but they're not in a house. Uh and that's not really my favorite kind of show to make. And no, no, no, people love those shows, and that and I'm mostly just joking about that. But what I was saying is like the term villains is like funny because like nobody in real life is like, I'm a villain, but when you're on reality TV, you like there are people that own that moniker proudly, like I'm a villain and I don't care. I love it, it's fun. And so I wanted to make it like a love letter to reality TV and the history of it, and also like not take itself too seriously and sort of like spoof reality TV at the same time while we're making a reality TV show. So it's not like a scripted parody, it's a real life parody where our cast members are like seasoned famous experts from villains, they've been here a million times, they can sort of like laugh at themselves and their own reputation, and we can own it, and our challenges are ridiculous and over the top, and our names and titles are, and the way we shoot our hero shots that make fun of their legacy and them being down to be a part of it, and uh casting Joe McHale, who hosted the soup, who were like, Yeah, you have at them, they're villains, like nobody's gonna feel bad for them. And they laugh at Joel's jokes when they're getting dissed. They just they love all the attention, a lot of them. And uh, I love attention too, so I I'm not mad at them for that. I'm happy that they are people who love attention, but you know, I think that's also part of what makes them great. And then over time, it got even the pitches and the editing got even sillier and sillier. You know, we we kind of made up a lot uh a lot of it as we went along, but I wanted to start feeling things like someone says something and we cut to a screen that says footage not found because it never happened. And like yeah, so as like the editors of the show, you could hear the editor's voice in it. Like we're commenting as producers, we're rolling our eyes. You can feel the eye roll. You hear a lot of times our producers in the in the interview like saying things like you know, like uh sort of like joking with the cast, like not making fun of them, but reacting to the things that they're saying in a way that is like so basically what you just said is blank, and they're like, yeah, sure. And then things that would usually be cut out, we keep in. And also we owned a lot. There are so many things that happen and go wrong on these shows that you never get to see, and people are so curious about how the sausage was made. Yeah, so like we had this cool date where they were driving these cool classic cars and they get in and like, let's go! The car doesn't start. We kept that in. Uh, and then being like, What the hell? And we're like, that's great. Like, and people like really appreciate that. The first day, the first person to walk in was Johnny Fairplay, and he walks in and he's like, Let me do that again, I can do it better. And he did it again instead of the same thing, and we just like put both in the show because we're like, Yeah, that's what they do. These people come in and they self-produce. Wouldn't it be nice to see that? Yeah, yeah. So it's so much fun, and that kind of became the visual language that uh that became like our show, and I think that's what made it work this like instead of just any show just with a bunch of villains. I think there's a lot of ideas that have been pitched a million times that haven't been made that tomorrow will be announced, and I'll be like, I can't believe they're finally making that. I've thought of that a million times, and it's really about the execution these days rather than the idea that will make it good or bad, I think.
SPEAKER_03I mean, getting into like the pitching or or hearing a pitch, so it sounds like you get you get it from both sides, right? You're you're getting pitching shows, but you're also pitching. Um there any like I'd love to just hear like if you got some highlight reels of your like
Highlight Unscripted TV pitches: The good, the bad, the ugly....
SPEAKER_03the dumbest things you've ever heard about, or the best things that you ever heard about, but never really brought to fruition.
SPEAKER_02The best stuff is sort of I mean, the worst stuff is like I've had people come in and pitch me things with like one page that there's like no format, and I have to be like, and then what happens? Okay, so they'll be like, yeah, wine country, there's so much craziness and drama, and I'd be like, and who are the characters? What are this? Like, what's that? So I think you know, those are kind of the worst pitches. I've had things that like maybe that I've pitched or that I've like made that I'm like, Well, I can't believe we did that, or like we had a show that we did a pilot for VH1 um called it was originally called DTR Define the Relationship, and we brought three couples in, and we were like, they're all hanging out, we take the guys out, and then the women are just there, and our host comes in and is like, ladies, I hope you're all having a relationship. But a little surprise for you by the end of tonight, one of you is going to be proposed to, one of you is going to be dumped, and one of you is gonna be told a secret that might make you want to dump your person. And it sounds crazy and it sounds dramatic, and it was to the point that our execs, one of our execs, was crying by the end of it, and we kind of just realized it was a little too in your face, like insane. Uh, and they all started the night thinking they were gonna get proposed to, and by the end, and then we basically the idea was to compare notes, like look at his social media, look at text, and analyze together and be like through the process of a limit, like, oh wow, like you know, you must be the one getting dumped. Oh, well, I look more like the person. Well, you guys look happy. Maybe I'm getting dumped. And they all went from thinking they were all gonna be proposed to to by the end they were all sure they were getting dumped. And and then it was still like, you know, when it all went down, it was very dramatic and very emotional.
SPEAKER_03And you pitched this and you get and you did execute on it. We did a pilot. With the with the people on the show, yeah, dude. It sounds like massive fuckery.
SPEAKER_02Like, like it's a lot of when you're doing something like that, it's a lot of like people you know looking at you like, are you trying to ruin my life? You're like, no, it's great. Like, I'm not. I'm trying to make a show, I'm trying to do my job, it's great. But really, that isn't the intention, and I think that's why I'm saying it was kind of a it was, it was you it sounds great because it's dra dramatic and it's crazy and people are crying, but like literally almost everybody on set was like, I feel bad. Like, I feel like we we went a little too far. I'm sure it would have rated really high, but the network didn't end up picking it up, and I kind of understand that it was like a little like at that point in time, low-hanging fruit, a little too easy. I don't think that was like the craziest bad idea ever. I definitely think half of my ideas are like six months or two years later, I'm like, ooh, whoa. But my job is to constantly keep turning things out and keep pitching things and you're responding to things that happen in the moment. And so nothing is no idea is is as great as that first day you bring it up and you're in a room with your team and you're brainstorming it, and everyone's yes ending, and you get super excited, and you it gets better and better, and then like every minute after that, the idea gets worse and worse to the point where you like, I've been like, you know, you pitch it to like six different places, and you pitch the pitches are spread out, and then after four people like pass on it for whatever reason, you're like, This idea, I hate it, and then you're like, Man, I gotta pitch it two more times, and it's like, ugh, now I hate it. Can we just move on to the next thing? But Fast Foodies was a show I I personally
"Fast Foodies" - the reality is hungry!
SPEAKER_02loved, but I pitched it like five places, everybody passed, and the I had one pitch left at Turner, and it had gotten pushed, kept getting pushed weeks and weeks, and we actually finally the pitch came up, and we had like another we were in this bake-off for a show, like a new show with Patty Stanger. Like, Patty Stenger wants to do a show, we want to work with her, we're going to a couple production companies, let's hear your ideas. So we were like in the middle of that. So we're like, you know what, we'll go to that, we'll pitch the show, but then we'll start talking about the Patty Sanger thing and use it as an opportunity for that. We like showed them our tape and started pitching it, and the exec got super excited and like bought it on the spot in the room. Like, I want to do this, which almost never happens. They're usually like, I like it, let me go talk to my team, and then you agent chases them and you hear back, we sold this one in the room, the guy loved it, and it was like I love it again. Wow, okay, his excitement made me excited again. But there's so many, like, there's just so many ideas that come in and out and around again. So sorry, what was uh fast foodies? Um forgive me, but that was so that idea kind of came from the idea that um I think somebody on my team were talking about how David Chang, you know, this chef David Chang, in all these great restaurants, on one of his like documentaries or something, talked about his love for Domino's pizza. And we're like, that's so cool. Like to have a chef who's like makes all this great food to love Domino's pizza. And we were like, we had heard about a couple of other like examples of that. And we're like, it's so cool that even chefs who were supposed to be snooty, like sometimes just love fast food, and they can talk about it in a way like no one else can. Why is it great? Why does it taste great? Why does it make you feel a certain type of way? Like one of them said, I remember one of our chefs said something like, You can go to any McDonald's anywhere in the country, and you'll have the same taste, the same flavor. Everybody experiences that, and that's like this warm feeling you get. So that was like the basis of the show. And the show is eventually is like these three different chefs. One is Kristen Kish, who now hosts Top Chef, another guy, Jeremy Ford, who owns a lot of like he won Top Chef. He owns all these great restaurants in Miami, and uh another guy, Justin Sutherland, who won um, he won uh Iron Chef America. They're all three different chefs from three different backgrounds who all happen to like have an affinity for fast food. And every week they invite a different comedian on or a personality, mostly comedians, to keep it super funny. And Joe McHale would come on, and you know, or Bobby Lee came on and was like, I love the sausage McMuffin with egg from McDonald's. I love it. And they all sit and talk about why they love it, and then all three of our chefs go into the kitchen and try to create, like recreate it, the sausage McMuffin, like get as close to it as possible. Meanwhile, Bobby's in the kitchen. It's not like uh, it's not like a high-stakes competition, it's like friendly competition. They're talking shit, they're in the kitchen, you know, the comedian comes in, cooks with them, and then the comedian tries all three and decides which one's the best. And then in round two, they have to make a very like uh a culinary, more high falloon, more culinary dish inspired by the sausage muffin with egg.
SPEAKER_04Which is how have I never seen this? That's why I'm saying now we're gonna go back and revisit that because this is we are aligned.
SPEAKER_03That's like something we would do it in our own houses. Like we do do it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, just it's just like just last week. You've been doing it for years, actually, but just like perfecting the crunch wrap, the Taco Bell crunch wrap. And you just like try to send me pictures and be like, no, this what this is now. Now I got it.
SPEAKER_03You gotta go, or you know, I mean, it's you make your own version from scratch. Yeah. In and out, too. I've fucking crushed it. Well, I didn't taste it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you haven't crushed it till it passed the taste.
SPEAKER_03No, we got it, we got In N Out's got shit on on I mean on me now. That's it.
SPEAKER_04I took it on because you're talking to In N Out Favorite right here. You know, like everyone knows your name. Like, yeah, Napa In N Out.
SPEAKER_03I think I gotta stop or start going to In N Out only once a week. Like, dude, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I didn't know.
SPEAKER_02What is the secret behind the secret sauce? It's always ketchup mayonnaise and relish or relish.
SPEAKER_04I'll tell you this. I was always every secret sauce. I was always known for having a high metabolism, but then I finally found out how to break that. It was it was going to in and out. More than three times a week. Oh, I shouldn't even admit that.
SPEAKER_02It's cheaper on your shirt.
SPEAKER_04So I'm surprised they didn't give you a shirt.
SPEAKER_03I didn't even give you a shirt.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, just holding all you know your favorite things, got mushrooms on there. 40. Anyway, I digress.
SPEAKER_03So Fast Foodies sounds like an awesome show.
SPEAKER_02So that was on TBS for two seasons and then they re-aired it and re-cut it for Food Network, where they like got rid of some of the comedy, like some of the silly comedy and more process, uh, which we had because the the the length of it, like there was, you know, there's enough raw footage to recut it for me to be more like Food Network. So yeah, that was just a super fun show to make. I just, you know, I had a passion for it, and we shot a little tape for it ourselves, and it had a couple uh iterations before it hit air, but it was um yeah, super fun.
SPEAKER_03I thought that was a blast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we had a third round originally where it was like it was too much, but it was recreate the dish. Another one that was based on like this internet trend where you would like just take an actual egg McMuffin and you would have to like turn it the actual egg McMuffin into something else more culinary, like re like re-deconstruct it and then put it on top of something. And then the third round was gonna be just make something inspired by it. And when we shot the original presentation, someone like it was like Ilio's pizza, and somebody made like a chicken parmesan sandwich on two pieces of Ilio's pizza, which was kind of amazing, if you ever want it, right?
SPEAKER_03I have to say. It was really good.
SPEAKER_04You're just talking about all my all my loves right there.
SPEAKER_03I've yeah, pizza using pizza as your hamburger buns, it's life-changing.
SPEAKER_04We're on it now, dude.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, you're sandwiches. I mean, either one, but that's pizza should be your bun for everything, in my opinion now.
SPEAKER_04I like it, yeah. These are be my second favorite buns.
SPEAKER_03Dude, don't be gross. Imperver over here.
SPEAKER_04Well, I got a lot of things.
SPEAKER_03As soon as you start talking about food with Chris, all of a sudden he gets all horny and shit. It's weird. Yeah, it's like lots of innuendos there in the food.
SPEAKER_04Is it bad if I was just like, shout out to my girl? She's like, I hate you.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, she'd punch you in the face, dude. Moving along. Sorry. So I I did want to get into the psychology of this whole thing. Yeah. I think that's really interesting. And I'm I'm I'm sure Dave knows a lot more about it than than us, but like, and you had mentioned uh cops, which since I was a kid, like Cops was really the first kind of reality TV, but it wasn't reality. I mean, it was overly realistic, but you didn't have like the back of house drama to to kind of see where it ended up. It was just all of a sudden some criminal gets tackled, handcuffed, and there's cameras in their face, and then you kind of see some some of that stuff, right? But it wasn't really the storyline wasn't there, it was just you're waiting for that moment, right? And it it was like I was addicted to it, I loved watching it, but it seems like that psychology can continue to carry forward. Um, but I don't know what that psychology is. Is it just are we wanting to live through other people's happiness and and pain?
SPEAKER_01Is this really the end? Unbelievable. Find out next week.